People Attempting to Undermine Safe Sport

Sorry, but it’s still not obvious to me. Do you mean that McDonald has to prove a negative? I agree that the case against him looks bad, based on what’s been reported, but consider a hypothetical case in which two accusers say this happened to them in the seventies, and a third friend says she was told about the accusations at the time.

If he were innocent, how would he prove that nothing happened?

Why wouldn’t he try? He wouldn’t try if he knows he’s guilty and that the reporter is going to respond in court by laying out all the evidence.

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Mcdonald wouldn’t be proving a negative, he or rather his legal team would be tasked with proving that a demonstrable falsehood had negatively materially impacted him.

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How does he prove the “demonstrable falsehood” if not by proving nothing happened; that is, proving a negative?

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I suppose this (proving that nothing occured) could be and often is the defense in very many situations/cases, and yet these cases/trials are still pursued 🤷

Somehow the “I shouldn’t have to prove a negative” defense hasn’t really caught on yet.

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Ok… how about looking at it from a different angle. SafeSport essentially called McDonald a liar in the OC Register article. Seriously. They did. They essentially said he’s lying about multiple aspects of this matter.

It seems possible to easily prove who is lying… McDonald or SafeSport. Soooo… why doesn’t he go after them for libel/defamation? CLEARLY if SafeSport is full of BS on this whole case, they have caused material harm to McDonald’s reputation.

I went back to the OC Register article, and copied a specific portion of it to make my point:

*** Start of quoted content ****

“I don’t know why you’re digging into something that has already been dropped,” McDonald said during a brief telephone interview this week, referring to the allegations

“All of it is not true.”

McDonald, in fact, was not cleared by the U.S. Center for SafeSport, a SafeSport spokesman said this week.

SafeSport officials decided to issue an “administrative closure” because of the reluctance of the two alleged victims to participate in the arbitration process. The victims each had concerns about how the center had conducted its initial investigation, according to four people familiar with the case and SafeSport documents.

SafeSport has the option of reopening the case, the spokesman said.

McDonald alleges SafeSport dropped the case after he provided the center additional information prior to an arbitration hearing triggered by his appeal of the lifetime ban.

SafeSport, however, in especially strong terms for the center, said both of McDonald’s assertions that the allegations against him were “proven false,” and that the case had been dropped because of new information, were “not true.”

“Absolutely not,” Dan Hill, a spokesman for SafeSport, said this week.

“The center is aware of his statement and it is not accurate as far as the center’s position,” Hill said.

Any additional information McDonald might have provided SafeSport, Hill said, had “absolutely nothing to do with the center’s” decision regarding arbitration.

McDonald denied knowing K.D. during the telephone interview. He was then informed that K.D. had provided SCNG photos of McDonald riding “Charlie” a horse she said she owned, a photo of Debbie McDonald riding the same horse, of Bob McDonald water skiing, McDonald driving a boat on the Colorado River, and of a ski boat K.D. said McDonald owned. The name of the boat was “Hot to Trott,” she said.

“I don’t know that person,” McDonald responded.

He also denied knowing the second alleged victim in the phone interview.

“I don’t know her,” he said.

A day after McDonald’s denial, his attorney said “He did not deny knowing (the second alleged victim.)”

When asked what additional information he had provided SafeSport prior to arbitration, McDonald referred the question and further questions to his attorney.

“You appear to be quoting from the U.S. Center for SafeSport’s Notice of Decision or Investigative Report, both of which are confidential documents under the SafeSport Code,” Howard Jacobs, McDonald’s attorney, said in a statement to SCNG. “I am sure that you are aware that whoever provided this to you, which I presume to be one or more of the claimants, violated the SafeSport Code by sharing that document or documents with you.

“In any event, SafeSport’s Notice of Decision and Investigative Report represent SafeSport’s belief, and none of the allegations have been heard by a neutral fact-finder. Bob McDonald was prepared to present his defense to these false allegations to a neutral arbitrator, and an arbitration date had been selected, when the U.S. Center for SafeSport suddenly closed the case. In notifying Mr. McDonald that it was closing the case, the U.S. Center for SafeSport specifically advised that the Notice of Decision (which I believe is the very document you have quoted to me) had been withdrawn and that all sanction(s) imposed therein were lifted. Under those circumstances, we disagree that SafeSport could re-open the case; but in any event, there has been no indication that it intends to do so.”

Jacobs added: “Mr. McDonald does not recall (K.D.).”

SafeSport documents contradict McDonald’s assertion that he was not given a chance by the center to defend himself during the investigation.

“Unfortunately, the system in place does not allow for individuals to be given the opportunity to effectively defend any of the allegations prior to a ban,” McDonald said in a statement at the time of his banishment.

In fact, the SafeSport report cites McDonald’s “refusal to participate” with the investigation.

McDonald on Jan. 30, 2020, his birthday, received from SafeSport “a written copy of the Notice of Allegations,” according to the center’s report. McDonald, the report said, “denied several repeated, written requests” over a four-month period “to participate meaningfully in an interview with the Center Investigator.”

“I will not produce myself for interviews with the U.S. Center for SafeSport due to the Center’s use of the single investigator model and the lack of substantive and procedural process and lack of substantive and procedural process rights of provided by the Center’s code,” McDonald said in a May 14 sworn affidavit he provided SafeSport.

McDonald also threatened to sue SafeSport in U.S. District Court.

*** End of Quoted Content ***

Okay. So let’s think about this. McDonald’s defense all along has been that these are allegations from a long time ago, the whole case was built on nothing but an allegation from an individual, and he was never provided a fair chance to defend himself and his reputation during the investigative process. And then in August, after SafeSport backed off with respect to his scheduled arbitration challenge… he took it a step further. He actually made quotes to Nancy Jaffer alleging that they backed off because of evidence he provided one week before his hearing, and said he was then “cleared” of the allegations against him… here is quoted content from an August 21, 2020 report Jaffer released about this

*** Start of Quoted Content ***

McDonald was suspended in June, pending an appeal. While arbitration was pending, he provided more information to SafeSport on August 21. Then, a week later, he was notified that all sanctions had been lifted.

He and his wife, U.S. Dressage Technical Advisor Debbie McDonald, were relieved that after more than two emotionally and financially draining months, their nightmare is over.

“The accusations were false, they were always false and were proven to be false. It’s simple enough,” said McDonald, who is semi-retired.

SafeSport is the “exclusive authority” investigating and prosecuting allegations of sexual abuse within Olympic and Paralympic sport.

While a spokesman for the organization could not comment on the specifics of the case, he stated, “SafeSport’s mission is to make athlete well-being the centerpiece of sport culture.

“It fulfills its critical purpose through policies, resources and tools aimed at preventing abuse as well as those that allow the Center to hold individuals accountable. Every matter is unique which is why the Center is equipped with tools, policies and procedures to account for the many variables inherent in this important and highly sensitive work. One such tool allows SafeSport to return to a matter when and if additional information is made available, including the participation of key witnesses. Such a decision is not taken lightly and is only made in the interest of fulfilling the Center’s mission.”

When contacted, the USEF said in a statement, “We do not have any details on the decision made by the U.S. Center for SafeSport. All information with regard to the case remains confidential in accordance with the policies of the Center. Mr. McDonald has been fully reinstated as a USEF member.”

McDonald noted that when the case against him was made public, supporters stood behind him.

“They said they know me, and they know that this isn’t me. That’s what kept me going the whole time,” noted McDonald, 73, whose career also included time as a horse show judge.

“I got letters from people I taught 50 and 45 years ago, saying I had changed their lives and they wanted me to know they were the better for it. That let me know in 50 years of doing this, some good came from it.”

As his wife commented, “It was amazing to see how many names I’d forgotten who came forward and said (of the accusation) `There’s no way. If you need anything, let us know.’

While thanking those who supported her husband and herself, she stated, “We are relieved and grateful to hear that the lifetime ban against my husband, Bob, has been lifted and that the case is closed, but we are by no means considering this a celebration.

“He has never wavered his position on the accusations being false and we are both appreciative of all of our family, friends and supporters who have encouraged us and supported us during this time. From the beginning we cooperated and allowed the process to take place with SafeSport. Bob understood the seriousness of the accusations and that is why we were committed to clearing his name. We do not take any type of abuse lightly. There is nothing worse than having your character, or the character of a loved one questioned.”

While the ban was in effect, Bob McDonald was prohibited from participating in any activities or competitions licensed, endorsed or sponsored by the USEF, and was not allowed to attend shows.

At the time the accusation was made, McDonald said, “It is beyond heartbreaking to see the reputation that I have painstakingly built throughout my career be tarnished by an allegation of misconduct from 47 years ago.”

*** End of Quoted Content ***

So here’s my point. Read both reports I quoted. Both sides of this story can not be true. Either Bob and Debbie were carefully deceptive in their representations to the entire community last August about how the SafeSport investigation was conducted, whether or not they cooperated with the investigation, whether or not he ever had a chance to meaningfully defend himself against the charges that were made against him, whether or not he submitted evidence to SafeSport a week before his arbitration date that clears him of these allegations, and… oh yeah…

Whether or not SafeSport dropped out of the arbitration BECAUSE he had provided evidence clearing himself of these charges…

OR

SafeSport representative Dan Hill defamed and libeled Bob McDonald when providing commentary to the OC Register for their Feb. 5, 2021 article pushing back on Bob abs Debbie’s position.

It really seems like a total either/or to me.

From where I’m sitting, it looks like Bob McDonald lied last August, and thought he would get away with it because he thought the whole report would remain secret. And then the claimant decided to come forward to the media. And yea… that is problematic because it was all supposed to remain confidential. But now we have a fair amount of info to look at. And it looks like McDonald has been deceptive about multiple aspects of this mess. In fact, it seems like he was deceptive when speaking to this reporter, Scott Reid, it seems like he was questioned, and then a day later, a new lawyer for McDonald got back with the reporter, abs tried to clean up the mess.

Anyway… that’s my take on it. But feel free to disagree. But it seems pretty clear that McDonald has lied about aspects of this investigation to the public. And he comes off as self serving and narcissistic.

And the specific portion where he claims to Scott Reid of the OC Register to not even know who both of these claimants were (his lawyer later changed it to not remembering them)…

Yeah. That part in particular is disturbing to me. Clearly they remember him. According to K.D., when she looks back at what she remembers happening between her and McDonald:

“I don’t know how to explain it other than to say that being raped was like someone stealing your soul,” she said. “You’re just gone afterwards. It’s almost like you’re not even there.”

Really awful sad stuff.

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Sometimes I just go back and read my own posts, because I’m hilarious.

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Who were you referring to in that post, snd what were his words again? I took a long break from this thread.

And yes, you do have a wicked sense of humor.

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Bernie Traurig, who needed the world to know he was renouncing his USEF membership because of the mean treatment of his child sexual assault bash bros Rob Gage and George Morris, but defs he is still open for business and utilizing ushja, usef, and coth forums to advertise for business.

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I hope they are worried!

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A little more background information for folks following this topic, concerning Scott Reid, the reporter with the OC Register who looked into these claims about Bob McDonald, the full SafeSport investigative report and related evidence, and who interviewed the claimants.

People should know that Scott Reid has extensive professional experience in this topic (sexual abuse of minor athletes and circumstances tying that to the Olympic Movement). He’s a very serious, accomplished journalist. He broke the full story about Don Peters, a USA Gumnastics coach, abs has been investigating abs writing about these sorts of stories for years.

I found some details about his bio and professional history on the OC Register site. I pulled some parts from a lengthy article on his professional history, and have copied and pasted that content into this comment, in case others are still dealing with paywall challenges with the OC Register site.

“In 1996, Reid joined the Register as the paper’s sports enterprise and investigative reporter. In early 2000, Reid heard about concussions while covering the National Hockey League and observed major injuries in professional football. They brought back memories of the student gymnasts. “It struck me the impact these young women were doing was at the same level,” Reid says. “I think these guys from the University of Tennessee said, ‘Imagine standing on a basketball hoop and then jumping off it repeatedly onto an 8-foot foam mat.’”

Covering the Olympics trials in Anaheim and the 37th World Artistics Gymnastics Championships also gave Reid a chance to see a few injuries of US gymnasts up close. In the spring of 2004, he started methodically tracking down a list of former junior and senior national team members from 1982 to 2004.

In December 2004, the Register published Reid’s two-part, 5700-word feature into how the sport’s culture of training and overwork often led to injury and surgeries at a rate similar to professional football players; 93 percent of gymnasts, he noted, suffered broken bones or sustain injuries that require surgery. It also detailed how a widespread obsession with weight and diet often lead to eating disorders among members of the junior and senior national teams.

Nobody listened to these women. In some cases, it’s been decades. Sometimes you’re really the first person who’s willing to hear them out.

They included interviews with more than 100 women, one of whom told Reid she broke her arm when she was 15, her foot when she was 16, and had her hip replaced at 21. He was struck by a darker undercurrent in their stories of all their injuries. “Just the psychological abuse,” he says. “Kids implying they had been kind of roughed up. Not to the point that Nassar did, but way over the line.”

After that story ran, Reid started getting emails from an anonymous source urging him to look into 1984 Olympic coach Don Peters and his relationship with gymnast Doe Yamashiro. Reid eventually figured out who his source was—the daughter of Linda McNamara, Peters’s assistant at his gym. Linda McNamara connected Reid to Yamashiro. Peters ran a gymnastics facility called SCATS in Orange County, which Reid says was like an “Olympic factory,” since multiple members of the 1984 team had trained with him there. “We found that he had sex with three teenage gymnasts,” Reid tells CJR. “Just really vile stuff.”

Reid’s 2011 twopart investigation into USA Gymnastics also included reporting on Doug Boger, a US national team coach in trampoline gymnastics who had abused a series of young girls at a gym in Pasadena, CA in the 1970s and 1980s.

ICYMI: The story BuzzFeed, The New York Times and more didn’t want to publish

The report found Boger was named USA Gymnastics Coach of the Year in 2009, and was a national team coach at the 2009 World Championships even though he was under investigation. “We found that even though he was banned, he was coaching at a friend’s gym in Colorado Springs, just a short car ride over from USOC headquarters,” Reid says.

That investigation led to Peters resigning, Boger getting fired, and a series of follow-up stories. Outlets like ESPN noticed and USA Gymnastics adopted new rules designed to prevent banned coaches like Peters from remaining in the sport. “But just as it was getting legs, the [Jerry] Sandusky thing broke,” Reid says. He recalls how victims of Peters and Boger felt like their cases were perceived as either not a big deal or not as much as a surprise compared to Sandusky’s male victims. “What Boger did to those girls is as horrific as anything I’ve ever seen. And I was frustrated because I think if it had gotten better play then, we might have been talking about Nassar then instead of six years later.”

“The Sandusky thing was like a giant tidal wave that just crashed over this Peters story and it was just kind of forgotten,” he later added.

In addition to reporting on LA’s Olympic bid and the NFL’s relocation to LA, Reid has also led investigations into the International Olympic Committee, the US Department of Education, the California Legislature, and incidents of abuse by USA Swimming coaches. “I think in terms of scandals, [USA Swimming is] on par with USA Gymnastics,” he says. “Just the neglect and the culture that created these abusive coaches. There’s not a Nassar-figure we’ve found so far, but I think eventually it points to the [US Olympic Committee].”

Reid knows sources have spoken to him because of his reputation, the breadth of work he’s published, and word-of-mouth from other survivors. “When I approach people now, I send them my stories and show them I know what I’m talking about,” he says. “It’s a headline to us but it’s a person’s life. It’s also important to tell these stories because I tell these women all the time that they’re saving some kid’s life by coming forward. And I firmly believe that. That’s why you do this. You’re making a difference.”

In the recent case of Marcia Frederick, Reid was tipped off by another Olympian. Reid initially spoke to Frederick on the phone, but the former USA Gymnastics world champion said if she was going to tell Reid her story, they had to meet in person. “I went back to Massachusetts, spent a day with her, and got her trust,” he says. “She wanted to look me in the face.”

His interview process is pretty simple. “You ask a couple of questions and just get out of the way,” Reid says. “You’d be surprised how many times you interview somebody and these women will have 20 minute answers. Nobody listened to these women. In some cases, it’s been decades. Sometimes you’re really the first person who’s willing to hear them out.”

Reid sees the focus on Nassar as important, but a symptom of a much larger problem. He says it’s important that journalists don’t portray or view Nassar as a kind of Sandusky–like “lone-wolf monster”; the focus should be on the larger Darwinian attitude towards the athletes that often causes them to overtrain in highly vulnerable conditions. He recalls talking to USA Gymnastics national team coach Marta Karolyi at the Rio Olympics in 2016 and her nonchalant attitude about Simone Biles’ performance: “‘The strength of our program is we have so many girls, and so if someone can’t make it or breaks down, we just put another one in.’”

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Hugs to you. The news of Geddert’s suicide, and this recent article about the full Bob McDonald allegations in the OC Register? It’s all sort of breathtaking. This reckoning in sport just keeps on going and going and going. My heart goes out to everyone impacted by these stories.

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I am still not convinced this was a screw up on the part of the SS investigation. In taking the claimants statement, wouldn’t you write it up and give it up the claimant/witness to review and take clarification? What you’re assuming they did would be do hideously sloppy, I’m having trouble imagining it.

If the women now blame their declining to testify on SS, SS can hardly issue a statement calling them liars as they did to McDonald.

In earlier threads, the issue came up as to whether SS could or should be able to compel the victim to testify. Apparently SS does not compel the victims to testify, even if it means dropping the case.

I think we just don’t know if SS bungled the investigation or not. If they did everything right and the claimants declined to testify, in that type of case in which there is very little evidence beyond the witness testimony, SS would not be able to proceed even if their case was solid.

I have to imagine that the claimants were told, “Ok, I think we have a solid case, but you understand that if we ban him, he’ll probably insist on arbitration, in which case you’ll need to testify, right?”

And later, before dropping the case, “OK, you understand that if you decline to testify, we’ll have to drop the case, and he gets off, right?”

I guess I’m not clear on who McDonald is hypothetically suing for defamation,

  1. suing the newspaper for the defamatory statements of child sex abuse, or
  2. suing SS for saying he lied about being cleared.

I think SS could easily prove he lied about being cleared and lied about not knowing the second victim, but being caught in those lies is not the huge deal.

If we are talking about McDonald suing the paper because of their disclosing the evidence of sex with a minor, that’s the big one. That’s where he would need to prove a negative if the burden is on him.

I think he would be insane to sue, because if he did, that would induce the paper to go through its evidence, which looks strong. But I think the paper would have the burden to to establish that a reasonable person would consider the statement was valid, based on the available evidence. Otherwise you get into proving a negative.

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???
Just asking

Are you asking something of somebody in particular? Quoting is weird in this new format, and I can’t tell who your post is directed to :slight_smile:

I suggest you go back and reread that OC Register article. It’s a lot to take in, but is pretty clear on details about the claimants experiences with the SafeSport investigator, their reluctance to testify at arbitration, and why that was. I think the article speaks to some of the issues you are raising.

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So, while the equestrian world came up with AES to protect abusers, outside our insular bubble, there is a legitimate 501c3 organization looking out for athlete victims. It’s called The Army of Survivors.

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have no knowledge of SafeSport but Title 9 investigations once the investigation report is finalized, complainants and respondents have the right to receive a copy
of the investigation report (witnesses do not have this same right) as the report is generated from notes not recording

As for putting a complainant at ease, we have one Golden Retriever dog who is certified as an emotional support dog for criminal investigations involving children

My wife’s cousin was a DA who later entered private practice who I lost respect for after he worked diligently to get a man off with no time to service for abuse of a minor…and he knew the guy did the deed

I for about six years was a regional youth director for a breed association, one of the guide lines I had then that no adult was to be alone with any minor for both parties safety

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well, blame that one on the system.
Even Charles Manson was entitled to the best possible defense (as per constitution) and if the actors in that charade let the perpetrators off, that is on them.
it is the principle of modern jurisprudence to rather let guilty people go to avoid locking one innocent person up.
And it gives grounds to appeals if the defense attorney does not do their best.

There is what is ethical, and there is what is legal.
And often enough those do not match up.

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Please private message me

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