Forgive me for asking, but where exactly does KMSFH say that? I know her and I think I have read all of her posts. Honestly, maybe I missed that one or didn’t read it carefully enough. I ask this question with respect.
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It was a post on Sept 30. Honestly, and I mean no disrespect, her posts are often hard to follow as they are very long, rambling, and reference other posts. But in it she seems to be addressing a man who assaulted her or somehow harmed her. I believe he had been contacting her since she started speaking out. She gives him two choices: she will pursue criminal charges (“try to prosecute you”), or he can seek counseling with a counselor she recommends.
In the end he choses the second option, no surprise, though it is unclear how there will be any accountability here. She closes by saying, “I want him to CHANGE!!!
it doesn’t do us , or me (who I speak for) much good if they are in jail , publically humiliated ,dead from suicide , or banned from their sport
we want CHANGE”
I just cannot agree with that. Any sexual or violent offender must be prosecuted (she says there is a lot of evidence against the person) if possible and at least reported to SS, and, if their violations are also violations of the standards of the sport’s governing body, they truly should be banned from the sport. Also, pedophiles cannot change.
I am uncomfortable with the whole direction of the post as it suggests people who do come forward and make reports that result in a banning are somehow not doing the sport “much good”. It also implies that it’s wrong for offenders to be publicly “humiliated” by being held accountable for their actions.
Again, I truly think her heart is in the right place and I feel terrible that she, herself, is also a survivor of sexual assault. But I cannot support the overall takeaways from that post and some others. Too much blaming the women associate with some of these perpetrators (she calls them in some cases more evil than the men actually raping minors) and thinking it is somehow better to have long talks with these people or depend upon them promising to see a therapist she recommends, rather than truly holding them accountable and getting them removed from the sport/access to minors who ride if banning is warranted.
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I definitely don’t agree with all of her opinions, but I applaud her for at least publicly discussing these issues and acknowledging that equestrian sports have serious issues that need to be addressed, which is more than most equestrian professionals are doing.
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Thank you for your well thought out response. I did read the post to which you are referring and I understand how you interpreted what she said. I can’t speak for her but I think she hopes that some can change if they haven’t yet gone too far. I personally don’t believe those who have been predators or abusers can change and I think they should be blocked, banned and when possible prosecuted(lock them up and throw away the key).
However, I also think that it’s possible for someone who in frustration speaks with misogynistic anger might well be brought around to a different way of thinking and acting. That individual may have heard that kind of talk growing up and/or around other men in the sport. I think this may be where hope lies. If people who speak that way get very negative yet constructive feedback, that may well help. It will take more than just women calling them out. The men who would never say such a thing and find it offensive need to speak out as well.
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Agreed!
Agreed!
So this is where I begin to see this case a little differently than you. When I read her post, it seemed like she did call SafeSport first… but they seemed to have indicated that they would not investigate or sanction anyone for a comment like the one this male trainer made. That’s how I understood KMSFH’s post. Soooo… rather than doing nothing, she decided to try and step up and do something, and talk to this other male coach herself. And the situation unfolded from there, and it seemed that this guy was also struggling as a young professional. He definitely seems to have expressed a degree of underlying misogynistic sentiment… but at present… there is no penalty for that. Soooo… we can choose to avoid people who think and talk like this, or to confront and engage with them. I think that’s a judgement call that is going to vary from situation to situation… there aren’t always easy calls as to what the best course of action is in response to hearing someone speak the way this trainer spoke.
I believe (but might be mistaken or have misread/misinterpreted KMSFH’s posts) that the situation she described involving steering a different man to seek therapy involves someone who actually had personally assaulted/abused KMSFH at some point in the past. I might be wrong… but that’s how I read the two different posts.
When it comes to reporting, or not reporting, your own abuser to either SafeSport or the police… or anyone else… that’s an INCREDIBLY individual decision. There are so many factors that go into each case, and what is a practical or feasible choice for a survivor. If a survivor knows that there is next to ZERO chance they can establish enough evidence to support a criminal conviction or SafeSport penalty in the case of someone who assaulted them several years prior… do they still have an obligation to report their own prior assault, and get an investigation process started? That’s an incredibly tough thing. Investigation processes can be emotionally BRUTAL for victims of assault. Should someone really reopen their own old wounds if it’s almost certain no conviction or ban will come of it?
My personal position is that I support other survivors if they choose to do what is in the best interests of their own emotional health. Even if that means not reporting their own assault. These choices can be really complicated. I’ll admit… I don’t fully understand KMSFH’s story or her choices… but I know I also don’t have all the relevant information that went into her decision making process. Soooo, I’ll withhold judgement, and just pray it works out okay for everyone involved, and results in something positive in the end.
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I appreciate what you are saying and I think your perspective has a lot of merit.
I also look at it from another direction, from my experiences with young male peers when I was young, and how many of them thought that talking like that was how you sounded cool, because that’s how their mentors and people they looked up to talked. In those cases it often is just talk, at first, and (a) they wouldn’t have had those ideas if not exposed to them that way and (b) they won’t think or talk that way in the future if corrected early. But if not corrected then they start to act as if it is true, and a good idea.
And that’s where I say that professionalizing our sport could help to break the chain, because in many places, I believe, our sport has not simply welcomed and permitted predators, but made them.
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I agree, and if he had said some typical misogynistic nonsense, we’d be on the same page. Stuff like, throws like a girl, women don’t have what it takes to get to the top of this sport, don’t have a woman coach, they’re too hormonal, or whatever - yeah, call that toxic crap out and get the person to see what they are doing wrong.
But I genuinely believe that any discussion that combines talk of minors and sex, in any capacity, but most certainly in the breathtakingly violent and ugly way the coach in question did, must be a line no one can cross. That IS going too far. Especially with the inclusion of “blackout drunk”. It is so specific and so repulsive, it demands action. It is too far for talking and hugs.
If I were one of that child’s parents and the person who heard this did not warn me, I would be livid. Make the SS report even if it won’t be a priority case, tell the parents, AND have a long talk if you want. But just doing the last bit is what REALLY does not much good for our sport.
If we cannot draw a bright line about behaviour regarding sex and children, what the hell are we doing here?
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Absolutely.
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I agree with filing with SS. Even if an event alone is not charge worthy, the next person who comes along and reports will have a little more evidence to build a case. Showing a trend might add teeth
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Such a good point.
The “old boys network” was built by favouring quiet talks over reporting and actual action, wanting to avoid public humiliation for rapists, etc. We must stop framing the situation like that. Just yesterday, two more men were “publicly humiliated” by being convicted in the Varsity Blues scandal. No one is shedding a tear. It DOES do good to have people held accountable, publicly and personally, for criminal behaviour.
As far as what that man said and why it goes “too far” or goes beyond a need for “professionalism” or requires a reaction far stronger then a talk and a hug: I see any - literally any - mention of sex and minors to be 100% taboo; utterly forbidden. We cannot allow that stuff to be framed as “frustration” or “misogyny” because that softens what it really is.
For me, it’s like the n-word. Once any mention of sex wrt a minor comes out of someone’s mouth, we are done; interview concluded, blocked, reported, etc. No amount of frustration or anything else excuses the use of that term. Use it once, in any context, and I know what I need to know about the speaker.
There are a handful of things so profoundly and gravely wrong that we must establish what is known in law as “peremptory norms” around them. This is one of those things and what was said violates that norm and cannot go unrecognized.
Again, had that been said about my daughter and had I known that there was an adult there who should have reported it to SS and to me and did not, but rather talked to and hugged the person who said that about my daughter, there would be consequences for more than just the coach.
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I agree with this. What one does wrt to one’s own abusers is totally respected.
I do not respect not following through with a report on the blackout drunk and f*&%ed comment (regardless of how it would be prioritised) and not warning the parents of children in that coach’s programme. @hoopoe made an excellent point about all reports being necessary for a full picture of any given person’s behaviour. It may really help the next person who needs to report him and/or any victims.
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I better see where you are coming from on this now, I think.
Much respect for you and the points you’ve made in this discussion.
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Back at you!
One thought that I have that guides me with respect to certain behaviours like is: normal, healthy, properly functioning people do not have access to ideas and language like that on the spur of the moment - or ever. When I’m angry and frustrated I can swear like a longshoreman, raise my voice, even say things in anger like, I hate you, or you’re the worst, or I never want to see you again, or you’re fired or any number of intemperate, emotional responses.
Not once, not ever, have I used language about someone’s race or religion in anger b/c it’s not in me. The same goes for anything sexual at all relative to minors. I, and most normally functioning, healthy adults, do not have that place to go to even in times of stress or frustration.
That this person had that kind of ideation and language at the ready and expressed it right away in a situation of relatively low stress (another rider pointing out that one of his students isn’t paying attention in the warm-up ring) tells us something very important about that person and their internal mental landscape. That person is a person of interest at an absolute minimum. That girl’s parents need to know what he said about her and they need to know yesterday.
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I agree that the report to SafeSport is worth doing plus also the personal chat. I agree that having access to that idea and language is of concern. I would like to see SafeSport have the resources to send a counselor/investigator for such a situation right away - I think resolving it with counseling and a record is probably the best for everyone.
In my head I was imagining a very young trainer, early 20s. Someone older, I’d be a lot less optimistic than I was in my OP.
In any case, I appreciate anyone taking the time to be uncomfortable and trying to make things better. And for that, I want to laud KMSFH. We can all do better, and we will all make mistakes along the way, so it’s important to me that we encourage people to put themselves out there.
Already I’ve seen several names I recognize who were anti-SafeSport and circling the wagons when Rob Gage was first named, coming around because of her influence and the stories she’s told. This is a good thing.
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That’s really positive. It is remarkable to compare and contrast the public reaction to Rob G’s ban, with the reaction to Rich F and Jeff C. There’s clearly progress being made with respect to people’s attitudes.
Kristin has posted that another big ban is coming… will be curious to see how that news is received.
If nothing else… with the multiple recent penalties and bans on the West Coast… especially in Oregon, there certainly is some opportunity for good professionals who are NOT under a SafeSport cloud to grow their coaching and training programs. Carpe Diem!
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He was permanently banned on 8-2-21.
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I hope if this is true, that the soon-to-be-banned person is in the meantime prevented from doing any more damage. 
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So it looks like Tom Navarro is still teaching at River Chase but is living on the premises of Wulf Crest Stables, therefore having access to two stables with children’s riding programs.
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Who is training at Wulf Crest Stables?
I see that Wulf Crest Stables is offering pony rides today. Great. 
Are you certain that Tom Navarro is living on the premises? To have a person banned for life by Safe Sport and USEF living on a farm that advertises an “after school riding club” is very unfortunate.
I hope the community is aware.
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