Personal Experience Buying @ Hanoverian Verband Auction in Germany

[QUOTE=speedhrse3;3324439]
You have to remember that the Germans have many hundreds of years of breeding expertise. They also breed 1000’s of mares each year. Breeders here might breed 5 mares, maybe more, but in general there arent 20 or 30 babies at each farm you may visit. [/QUOTE]

As I understand it, many horse breeders in Germany do things on a small scale (2-4 foals/ year). Of course, there are some large-scale breeders, but, as in the US, they are the minority. Are you implying that some individual breeders breed 1000 mares per year? I doubt this; I think it’s collective, as it is in the US. Perhaps Alexandra or others can confirm this. My point is that there aren’t always 30-40 babies at every German breeding farm, though there are foal-rearers who buy many foals each year with the intent to raise and market them.

What I find interesting about the situation is the distance between many German breeders and the buyers of the horses they produce. I can’t imagine German breeders are any less passionate than US breeders. The OP’s article mentions that the breeders of the horse she bought were in tears about his sale, right? Perhaps the distance – the professionalism – found in Germany is something we US breeders need to emulate. I would argue that those US breeders who aren’t professional will be pushed out of the market in the current downturn; those that remain professional will get to keep breeding, as long as they keep producing top quality horses.

I’m a US breeder of Hanoverians and, yes, I’m definitely in my infancy as far as the endeavor is concerned. But what I’ve noticed is that almost all bloodlines in Germany can also be found in the US. And we’re not talking about less-than-stellar examples of those bloodlines, either. At some point, US buyers will figure this out and act accordingly. Many already have.

But don’t take my word or YankeeLawyer’s word for it. Why not listen to the Verband?

Here’s what the Hanoverian Verband printed in its member publication, translated from the German, in January 2008 about 2007 sales [I repeat it here faithfully, complete with grammar and spelling mistakes]:

“The consistently dropping dollar greatly impacted the auctions. The number of horses, which sold to the U.S.A. regressed from 104 in 2006 to 64 in 2007. For years the United States was the strongest outlet for exports, which now shows a decline due to deflated currency value. This example proves that the Hanoverian Association is on the right tract with its multi-tracked foreign strategy. Through sales to other foreign countries the association was able to fully compensate for these deviations… With a continuous demand in France, Spain, and Italy, horse markets in Scandinavia and East Europe show great possibilities for growth.” The Hanoverian No. 1, 2008, p4.

At the winter auction in Verden, only 6 of 121 horses were sold to the US. “Unfortunately,” we learn in the Verband’s magazine, “some customers from the U.S.A. will return home empty-handed. A result of the strong Euro, which influences the European horse market in the US.” The Hanoverian No. 2, 2008, p3.

As others – including the OP in her article – have pointed out, the auction situation often makes for competition for horses and therefore higher prices. Add to that the cost of shipping that horse home and you get a much higher price. Easier shopping, true, but at a premium I just can’t afford. It seems to me that buyers are faced with a very real choice. My response to that choice is easy for me: take advantage of those who have already imported top bloodlines to the US and save yourself a whole lot of cash, especially if you’re looking for a young or recently-started horse.

For others, it’s not such a clear choice. If you’re looking for a GP horse then maybe you are better to look in Europe. The import cost probably seems inconsequential if you’re spending $100-150K. I just find that the “more horses in one place” argument wears a bit thin when the buyer is looking for a young horse.

[QUOTE=speedhrse3;3324439]
You have to remember that the Germans have many hundreds of years of breeding expertise. They also breed 1000’s of mares each year. Breeders here might breed 5 mares, maybe more ,but in general there arent 20 or 30 babies at each farm you may visit. Over there you can go and find any bloodline you might want. You can visit auctions and find hundreds to see. Breeders here are in their infancy, comparitively. One of my friends imports hanoverians and finds many nice ones for our market. My trainer goes 4 or 5 times a year for Equitation horses and Hunters. Hers mostly cost over 65k-80k landed.They all sell quickly, for 125-150k, as she brings nice ones back. The days of finding bargains arent over but the germans and french have figured out that we will pay for nice horses.[/QUOTE]

First, while I will not dispute that Germans have many more years experience than we do here and do what they do very well, I hardly think that what was done 200 years ago is at all relevant to what makes a modern sporthorse. And, in fact, we all benefit from the many years of experience of our breeding peers, because they have identified, just for one example, many, many nicks that work well, and not only do we learn by example, but we do have access to all the same bloodlines as they do via frozen semen, should someone want to go that route.

Second, on the one hand you are talking about foals, on the other, experienced horses that are fetching six figures when imported. Apples and oranges.

Third, regarding trainers that buy equitation horses and hunters in Germany for 65 to 80K (including import cost – so, say 58K to 72K for a gelding without import) and sell them upon importation for double, I will say that is a great example of why I buy my own horses directly and write the check to the seller. And presumably, these are 3’ 6’ horses? In other words, failed jumpers in Europe? 58K to 72K is probably at least 20 K more than they should have cost in Europe, because even kids jump higher than 3’6 over there, so there is no market for those horses in their home country. So the poor American client, at 125K to 150K, is paying a lot more than double what they should be paying for the horse. That’s a great deal for no one except the trainer.

Also, are you saying this trainer buys these horses outright in Germany and then re-sells them here? Or are they buying for clients and just not telling them the true price of the horses? Because I am really wondering what trainers are shelling out that kind of cash to buy multiple horses on spec over there. And while I realize that hunters and big eq horses cost a lot, I am pretty surprised that someone with 150K burning a hole in their pocket can’t find one here.

I think there is still a certain “golden Halo” about an imported horse. This is because we have not had many home bred, well trained american horses…that went far in their disciplines ( I am talking dressage and maybe H/J- although I am not expert in that field).

The halo will shrink as the currency and the economy makes it more impossible than ever to import - for the smaller or middle level buyer…the top notch level will still buy the top notch horse in Europe - but that is a small quantity.
I believe the improved and good quality breeding that is going on in the US right now- needs to be followed by good and excellent training and bringing along…of course first the young horse trainer is in the limelight!

As the Germans improve and the Dutch improve the US is trying to catch up- our biggest challenges are infrastructure and training programs for young trainers and coaches- both areas need to be addressed appropriately by our leading organizations…

Well, ya’ll breed your mares to Quaterback because I would like to get an elite or premium quality 3-year-old mare, already inspected and started under saddle in 2010 or 2011. It would be nice to have a selection of about 50 to choose from in the United States.

P.S. The list of horses in the summer auction in Verden has now been posted with lots of videos soon to be uploaded. Enjoy.

http://www.hannoveraner.com/1014.html

I have no idea why we would want 50 Quaterback fillies in one year, but each to his own, I guess.

To Joanne’s point

This thread has brought me out of lurkerdom…

I think Joanne’s comment demonstrates the problem that I see: we have the quality of bloodlines here, but perhaps not the quantity required for “critical mass” (whatever that may be) for people to shop.

If Joanne and I want both Quaterback offspring in 2010 or 2011, how many will we have to choose from? I want the same quality and training, but in a gelding. Actually, since I’m looking for a nicely bred “hobby” horse, I could probably live with a lower level of quality than Joanne is going to need. Where and how will we find these offspring? How much variance in dam lines will we see with the offspring we have to choose from? Unless one orders a “custom” foal, how likely is it to find the bloodlines or something similar of what you are looking for?

Before someone attacks me for caring about the breeding of a horse that won’t be used for competition or breeding (not likely in this group, but you never know), please understand that I am looking for a quality animal. Through owning a very well-bred pet-quality dog, I believe that good bloodlines can take a lot of the guesswork and chance out of choosing a nice animal.

I don’t know. I think it’s a very different issue for the young horse breeding stock market versus the riding horse market, as has been said here already. I would love to have a place to go see 20-30 nicely bred “hobby” horses that are for sale that would follow the same format as the German auctions. See the horse being ridden by a trainer over the course of a couple weeks, get a chance to try the horses you are really, really interested in as well as see how they go with other new people on them, see what the horse is like when it’s not being ridden. The process here doesn’t really allow me to do that. I suppose if I camped out for the winter at WEF it would be close, but I don’t have that much time to take off!

Those venues have been tried here, although not for 2 weeks of viewing, and they have failed miserably because ‘you’ (that’s the generic you, buyers in general, not the personal you) didn’t come. And I do understand your search for quality, but TRUST ME, Quaterback is not the only one who producers quality, rideability and trainability. There are PLENTY of really top bloodlines here. What we do lack is plenty of correctly trained upper level horses because we just don’t have the riders and trainers here. Everybody wants instant gratification, i.e. an already trained horse. There are now coming along plenty of young, very well bred and talented and rideable horses. There’s still a big gap in the middle - between starting and about 2nd level that is very slowly starting to fill.

And I do understand your search for quality, but TRUST ME, Quaterback is not the only one who producers quality, rideability and trainability. There are PLENTY of really top bloodlines here.

As not a single one of Quaterback’s offspring is old enough to be going under saddle, no one knows what kind of rideability or trainability he passes on (or for that matter, much about him in that regard, either, as he is still very young himself).

Ok, poor example to choose a specific, young unproven stallion without approved sons.

There’s still a big gap in the middle - between starting and about 2nd level that is very slowly starting to fill.

This is where I think the issue of critical mass lies. I really like Hanoverians. This is the breed desire to own. I can look at the sales list on the AHS website, and I can look at many of the Hanoverian breeding farms, but it is unrealistic to think that I am going to find in America a group of riding horses similar to what is offered in Germany, all in one place at one time. I could easily rack up $10k-$15k in travel costs looking at horses here. That probably equals cost of importation and the trip overseas. I don’t live in a geographic location that allows for day trips to anywhere other than Denver, Chicago, and Minneapolis. The exchange rate is horrible, and maybe it always will be, but it’s possible it won’t.

If I were looking for a youngster, I would go to DAD with cash in hand, or coordinate a viewing with YankeeLawyer :). If I’m looking for an 8 - 15 year old, I’m looking at a lot of different haystacks online and trying to find a needle that looks good to me.

[QUOTE=Pinque2;3326932]
Ok, poor example to choose a specific, young unproven stallion without approved sons.

This is where I think the issue of critical mass lies. I really like Hanoverians. This is the breed desire to own. I can look at the sales list the AHS website, and I can look at many of the Hanoverian breeding farms, but it is unrealistic to think that I am going to find in America a group of riding horses similar to what is offered in Germany, all in one place at one time. I could easily rack up $10k-$15k in travel costs looking at horses here. That probably equals cost of importation and the trip overseas. The exchange rate is horrible, and maybe it always will be, but it’s possible it won’t.

If I were looking for a youngster, I would go to DAD with cash in hand, or coordinate a viewing with YankeeLawyer :). If I’m looking for an 8 - 15 year old, I’m looking at a lot of different haystacks online and trying to find a needle that looks good to me.[/QUOTE]

Pinque, if you need help finding horses, feel free to pm and I will be happy to put you in touch with good people. Mine are typically sold as foals (I have several inquiries on my 09s already), so for riding horses I would be directing you to other farms I know, but I am happy to help if I can either way.

Regarding the lack of training for the 'tweeners (from just started to 2nd or 3rd level) – well, some of you posters must be good riders and trainers - we NEED people to bring these youngsters along. Someone could make a nice business of that ; ).

[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3326690]
As not a single one of Quaterback’s offspring is old enough to be going under saddle, no one knows what kind of rideability or trainability he passes on (or for that matter, much about him in that regard, either, as he is still very young himself).[/QUOTE] That I why I want more than just a few to choose from. If they all turn out to be idiots under saddle, then that is what they are and I don’t have to buy one. But right now, that is what I want and I am a prime potential customer.

P.S. Loved the article and wished I had had something like that to read when I imported 9 years ago.

I do have clients in Virgina. I could creatively schedule my next business trip and get some horse shopping in… :slight_smile:

Thank you so much for the informative and interesting read! I’m living vicariously through you! :smiley:

And a question for everyone really (though it may have been asked earlier…I didn’t read all the posts): What would the typical costs be for an American looking to import a horse from Europe, above the purchase price of the horse? Say if one went to the Verden auction, stayed a week, bought a mare, and then imported to the Midwest?

I have a dream of someday importing a young mare to compete and later breed. It’s still a far-off dream but I’m a planner so I’d like to know what kind of figures I’m going to have to plan for.

I really like Hanoverians. This is the breed desire to own.
Well, Hanoverian is not a breed, it is a registry. My horses aren’t registered with Hanoverian, but I have, right now, 4 or 5 that have really good Hanoverian bloodlines. The Hanoverian Verband has many non-Hanoverian bloodlines in their registry, and the other Verbands have Hanoverians, so what exactly do you mean when you say that ‘this is the breed you desire to own’??? AND, not only that, but Quaterback is actually a Brandenburg stallion, who is licensed Brandenburg, Oldenburg and Hanoverian, so I’m just really really confused as to what you are looking for.

Well, okay then.

[QUOTE=tbgurl;3327069]
Thank you so much for the informative and interesting read! I’m living vicariously through you! :smiley:

And a question for everyone really (though it may have been asked earlier…I didn’t read all the posts): What would the typical costs be for an American looking to import a horse from Europe, above the purchase price of the horse? Say if one went to the Verden auction, stayed a week, bought a mare, and then imported to the Midwest?

I have a dream of someday importing a young mare to compete and later breed. It’s still a far-off dream but I’m a planner so I’d like to know what kind of figures I’m going to have to plan for.[/QUOTE]

Last I checked, to import a mare, it was approx. 10K Germany to NY, including air transport from Germany, USDA quarantine in Newburgh, NY, and CEM quarantine (that can be a facility of your choice, as long as it is an approved CEM facility). That does not include transport within Europe to the airport (esaily 500+ Euros), or transport from NY to the CEM quarantine, or from CEM to your farm. Geldings and mares under (approx) 2 1/2 do not have to do CEM, so it is about 3K less for them. Stallions cost the most to import because they have to do a longer CEM. If you are considering importing a mare, the most economical way to do it is to import her in foal. But, you do risk losing the foal in transport (which has happened to me).

[QUOTE=Tiki;3327088]
Well, Hanoverian is not a breed, it is a registry. My horses aren’t registered with Hanoverian, but I have, right now, 4 or 5 that have really good Hanoverian bloodlines. The Hanoverian Verband has many non-Hanoverian bloodlines in their registry, and the other Verbands have Hanoverians, so what exactly do you mean when you say that ‘this is the breed you desire to own’??? AND, not only that, but Quaterback is actually a Brandenburg stallion, who is licensed Brandenburg, Oldenburg and Hanoverian, so I’m just really really confused as to what you are looking for.[/QUOTE]

Just to confuse everyone, I primarly breed Hanoverians, technically, but in fact one of my mares is by Hohenstein, who is actually a Trakehner that is approved Hanoverian. Another mare, by Sandro Hit and out of a Donnerhall mare, is registered Hanoverian, but probably 90% of horses from this cross are actually registered Oldenburg. And my KWPN-NA filly, Florencio x Jazz, is eligible to be approved Hanoverian, and will do both her keuring and her inspection with the AHS when she is 3 so that her foals can be registered Hanoverian or Dutch.

And regarding Brandenburg, another famous horse that was registered with them was Poetin, with whom Quaterback also shares his damline for anyone who is interested.

[QUOTE=Tiki;3327088]
Well, Hanoverian is not a breed, it is a registry. My horses aren’t registered with Hanoverian, but I have, right now, 4 or 5 that have really good Hanoverian bloodlines. The Hanoverian Verband has many non-Hanoverian bloodlines in their registry, and the other Verbands have Hanoverians, so what exactly do you mean when you say that ‘this is the breed you desire to own’??? AND, not only that, but Quaterback is actually a Brandenburg stallion, who is licensed Brandenburg, Oldenburg and Hanoverian, so I’m just really really confused as to what you are looking for.[/QUOTE]

I used Quaterback as an example, building off Joanne’s post. I have no particular interest in his bloodlines.

I am very familiar with how the registries work, and that a horse that is a registered Hanoverian does not always have parents that were registered Hanoverians, and also that there are many horses of Hanoverian bloodlines that are not registered Hanoverian. I like the stringency of the Hanoverian registry. I feel that this registry produces one of the most consistent, predictable, and high quality “products” available in the warmblood arena. I’d be happy as a peach to have a registered Hannoverian that traces back to Matcho, Prince Thatch, or any other horse approved for breeding by the registry.

Matcho, Anglo Arab
Prince Thatch, TB
OK

Just to clarify, my post was not directed at anyone in particular. I actually think the registries are a bit confusing.