I absolutely agree that registries are confusing. They are nothing BUT registries, they are not breeds and each one is a mix of very good horses across the other registries. At one time they were very regional, that is no longer true, and it can be very confusing to those not familiar with them and even to some who are.
In order to get Hanoverian papers for a foal, one parent has to be registered Hanoverian. You can’t take a dutch mare that’s been graded in to the HAN studbooks and breed her to a Hanoverian-approved Oldenburg stallion and get Hanoverian papers. Just doesn’t work that way.
Had to smile at the 50 Quaterback fillies comment. You’re not going to see 50 quaterback fillies/mares in all 12 of the Verden auctions over the 2010-2011 period. And of what you do see probably only a couple will be SPA. There are 47 mares out of 114 in the upcoming auction, and only 21% are SPA or SPS. In the November auction, there were only 49 mares/filly-foals out of 173. DOn’t have the SPA stat, but I remember it being less than 21%.
If anyone has their heart set on an Elite or SPA Quaterback filly, I’d roll the rideability dice and buy young. They are not going to be thick across the “for sale” ground. If a German breeder (or NOrth American for that matter) has an SPA filly, because the blood in the damline will be so new, they are going to breed her and wait to see what happens. If they get an “oops”, then you might be able to scoop one up. And do you really want a mare that had an “oops”? I don’t unless I thought the cross was ludicrious to begin with. I see Elite/SPS mares all the time that can’t replicate themselves.
[QUOTE=ahf;3327499]
Had to smile at the 50 Quaterback fillies comment. You’re not going to see 50 quaterback fillies/mares in all 12 of the Verden auctions over the 2010-2011 period. And of what you do see probably only a couple will be SPA. There are 47 mares out of 114 in the upcoming auction, and only 21% are SPA or SPS. In the November auction, there were only 49 mares/filly-foals out of 173. DOn’t have the SPA stat, but I remember it being less than 21%.[/QUOTE]
Well, I never said I was expecting to see them at auction, nor did I say that I was tied to her being a Hanoverian (see premium reference). I expect that there might be 50 or so young mares throughut Germany by Quaterback available for private purchase in 2010 or 2011 who would meet my criteria. I don’t mind buying a filly in the US, but I want her already inspected (elite or premium) and started under saddle. I have raised a few and know what problems can arise, so I am willing to pay more for something older and started.
[QUOTE=tbgurl;3327069]
And a question for everyone really (though it may have been asked earlier…I didn’t read all the posts): What would the typical costs be for an American looking to import a horse from Europe, above the purchase price of the horse? Say if one went to the Verden auction, stayed a week, bought a mare, and then imported to the Midwest?
.[/QUOTE]
About $12000 to $14000 in todays dollar to euro situation for the trip plus getting the horse back here.
Import - 3500 euros to NY ($5500 US)
USDA - $2000
Trucking and mare quarantine $2000 - $2600 (using Blue Diamond in Ohio)
Airfare - $500 - $800 (depending on in you go summer or winter)
Car rental and gas - $500 (gas is $10 a gallon over there!)
Hotel - $1000 (6 nights at 100 euros a night)
Grand Total - ~$12250 if you get a tiny car, fly off season and stay in one of the smaller hotels
Don’t forget meals, beer and shopping!
FWIW, I recently paid $1500 for coach R/T to switzerland and booked it more than a month in advance; that was the lowest fare available.
[QUOTE=Joanne;3327556]
Well, I never said I was expecting to see them at auction, nor did I say that I was tied to her being a Hanoverian (see premium reference). I expect that there might be 50 or so young mares throughut Germany by Quaterback available for private purchase in 2010 or 2011 who would meet my criteria. I don’t mind buying a filly in the US, but I want her already inspected (elite or premium) and started under saddle. I have raised a few and know what problems can arise, so I am willing to pay more for something older and started.[/QUOTE]
Just to clarify – not that it matters much, for Hanoverian mares, at least, full Elite status has 3 steps. The mare has to get sufficient scores on her inspection to qualify as Elite Mare eligible. That means an overall 7 or better. Upon completion of satisfactory scores on her Mare Performance Test (requiring under saddle work and free jumping), she becomes an Elite Mare Candidate. Upon producing a live foal, she becomes Elite Mare. Germany has an additional step to get full SPS status, the Prix 1A.
And, it is highly unlikely there would be 50 QB mares anywhere in Germany that are SpA or SPS in any given year. Statistically it is near impossible, EVEN if he were bred to 500 horses there. Anyway, it is somewhat of a silly hypothetical. Presumably you would know whether a horse is your dream horse or not and would not need to reject 49+ of a particular pedigree to find it. Plus, you might wait to see what he can actually produce before deciding he is the sire for you.
I don’t know if this comment was directed at me (because I mentioned presenting my Dutch filly to the AHS), but I am aware of the above, and sorry if I confused anyone. I just want the option of registering any of her foals by Hanoverian-registered stallions, Hanoverian.
[QUOTE=ahf;3327499]
If anyone has their heart set on an Elite or SPA Quaterback filly, I’d roll the rideability dice and buy young. They are not going to be thick across the “for sale” ground. If a German breeder (or NOrth American for that matter) has an SPA filly, because the blood in the damline will be so new, they are going to breed her and wait to see what happens. If they get an “oops”, then you might be able to scoop one up. And do you really want a mare that had an “oops”? I don’t unless I thought the cross was ludicrious to begin with. I see Elite/SPS mares all the time that can’t replicate themselves.[/QUOTE]
While I agree with the first sentence of this assertion, I find the sweeping generalization about all breeders in Germany and North America – not to mention the idea that a breeder would judge a mare based on a single foal – a bit dangerous. Speaking only for myself, I can say that all but my broodies are for sale at all times.
OK, I have lurking here, reading all of these comments, and I finally have to step in. I own a breeding farm with a large number of Oldenburg and Hanoverian horses. I employ a full time young horse rider and we have produced and tested a significant number of elite mares and one licensed stallion. I say this only to demonstrate the fact that I feel we have a certain compentency level in presenting well started riding horses. I always have a few riding horses for sale that are honestly represented and that are often times some of the best I have produced. Right now, I have a mare that a beginner could ride safely or that a good rider could take into the hunter or dressage ring and win. She was second for the AHS Walter Hartwig award in her three year old year and has only gotten better. I have kept aside quite a few young geldings to turn into riding horses for sale over the next few years. We have an indoor ring. We have a beautiful outdoor ring. We are on the east coast near three major cities. If American buyers won’t come to me, there is no hope for any of us. I have been to Germany many times. I have a horse that lives there with a friend who has ridden horses (and won) at the German Championships. They have nothing in quality over the good breeders in America. I have seen lots of bad horses and bad riding there, believe me. The $20K horse bought at a German auction can be pretty average, ridden cleverly by an auction rider, that ends up being a $40K horse here- but it is still a pretty average horse. I would rather buy a good one here for the same price. And yes, there is a HUGE difference in the pre-purchase vetting interperetations between here and there. I like to think that American breeders are going to see a change in buyers’ attitudes someday. I only hope I see it before I poop out and retire from this tough business…
If you want a “nuts and bolts” analysis of cost breakdown for importation, leaving emotions aside about US vs. German breeders, talk to Christine at
Blue Diamond Stables. com
She helped me tremendously explaining the costs and “whys and hows” of importation. Very helpful and business-like. She has been helping people import horses for 7 years.
I was flabbergasted at the quarantine costs, until she explained to me what needed to be done for a stallion to be imported into the US. The United States Department of Agriculture and State Dept. of Ag set up these import protocols for the SAFETY of our domestic horses. All it takes is ONE horse that gets into the US, and brings over a bacteria that can be devastating to the whole breeding industry here. They have “diseases” in horses over there that we don’t have here, and DON’T WANT!
I had no idea!
Anyway, she can put you in contact with great brokers in Europe and help you understand the whole import/transportation process.
My two thumbs up to her!
Mo, thanks for your great post. We DO definitely breed and have top quality horses here. I have one mare that is well on her way to Elite Mare and another, just started under saddle that I think will follow in her shoes. I have Premium producers that produce gorgeous foals, but everytime someone posts about the good horses and bloodlines available here it is followed up with a post about how to buy in Europe and how ‘inexpensive’ it is. It is very discouraging for American breeders. Folks, we are doing this for YOU!!! We are trying very hard to bring top quality American bred youngsters, with the best bloodlines AND upbringing to American riders and you won’t even look at them. I don’t get it.
Do all of you also buy foreign cars and foreign made clothes and work for foreign companies as well?
Thank you Mo! And her farm is an EXCELLENT example of a place where you can see a number of quality horses in one spot, and she is within driving distance of other good farms, too. The pedigrees of her mares are posted on the Rolling Stone Farm website, and if one looks one can see that these are exceptional and proven bloodlines.
[QUOTE=Tiki;3328092]
Do all of you also buy foreign cars and foreign made clothes and work for foreign companies as well?[/QUOTE]
Well, actually ummm, I do drive a Prius. BEST car I have ever owned. For what it is worth, there is a Quaterback filly here I have been following, I’ve been dragging my heels to go look at, because I don’t want a youngster. I would be happy to go look any of yours in a few years.
The offer to pick you up at the airport and take you to lunch still stands - even in a few years. I will also take you to, or pass you on to, other breeders in the area if you want to arrange a day or 2 of horse shopping. I have mostly youngsters, but do, and will, have a few under saddle, probably around 3-4 years old. They don’t stick around later than that. When you’re ready, just let us know. There are a number of breeders in the area that we can contact to set up a visit.
[QUOTE=Joanne;3328389]
Well, actually ummm, I do drive a Prius. BEST car I have ever owned. For what it is worth, there is a Quaterback filly here I have been following, I’ve been dragging my heels to go look at, because I don’t want a youngster. I would be happy to go look any of yours in a few years.[/QUOTE]
There are at least a couple of COTHers who have some QBs on the way in Northern VA, due in 09.
Mo, your website is great, very informative, clearly defining your breeding mission, and you have fantastic bloodlines in your stock.
I like that you include client listings; “Ghalileo” is just the type of guy I’m interested in.
Thinking through it all, it seems like an issue of convenience to me. I’ve spent most of the morning looking at various websites, and I think I could plan perhaps a weeklong trip to see 5-6 horses within a three hour radius of a starting point like DC (I live in flyover land where we do a lot of driving, so a few hours spent driving does not bother me). I could probably keep the cost of this trip around $1000 - $1500. It would require a lot of phone and e-mail legwork to pre-screen and identify the best 5-6 (or whatever number) candidates for a match, but that would give me the opportunity to see which sellers I feel comfortable working with, and to see if my expectations are reasonable for my price range (and this is all without the assistance of helpful COTHers). Thinking back to the OP’s article, there were about 4 horses that she was really interested in at the auction. If I do a bit of homework (getting back to YankeeLawyer’s earlier point of being willing to put in a bit of effort), I can find the same number here and see them less expensively.
From a purely financial standpoint for my situation (I have more time to do homework online and over the phone than money to pay import costs and exchange differences), it would make more sense to buy domestically. The key to a successful experience would be the research and planning up front.
[QUOTE=Tiki;3328092]
Do all of you also buy foreign cars and foreign made clothes and work for foreign companies as well?[/QUOTE]
In my lifetime, I’ve driven a VW, a Mercury, a Toyota, and a Toyota. The Toyota I currently drive was manufactured in Kentucky. Most of my clothing is imported. I buy from American retailers, but very little of my apparel is manufactured in the USA. My company is multi-national but is headquartered conveniently just down the road from Devon. 
[QUOTE=Pinque2;3328710]
My company is multi-national but is headquartered conveniently just down the road from Devon. :)[/QUOTE]
Well then, you don’t have far to go to shop at all ; ).
US Breeders
If I wanted to buy a warmblood mare (prefer Hannoverian GOV or Trakehner would consider others if the bloodlines were right), 4 to 7 years old, over 16.1 hds with age appropriate training and I was willing to spend a couple of days in your area to look, how many horses could you show me that meet that criteria? What would the prices start at?
Not at DaD, time frame doesn’t work for me.
[QUOTE=Tiki;3328092]
Do all of you also buy foreign cars and foreign made clothes and work for foreign companies as well?[/QUOTE]
Ok. This is edging toward offensive. I think most “all” of us DO try to “buy American” and I always look first at American cars, etc. But I’ll guarantee you that you also have foreign-made tack, equipment, electronics and other items in your home and barn, because we all do. In many cases that’s all that’s available.
I also think some here are allowing their personal frustrations get the better of them, working themselves up into the false notion that any buyer who considers an import is refusing to even glance at horses for sale in the US, rather than looking at all their options, as it is any buyer’s right to do in this country.
What I look at is the quality per dollar value for whatever I’m buying. This is according to my personal yardstick, which may not be the breeder’s yardstick. So maybe the breeder is “doing it for me” or maybe they are doing their own thing and it doesn’t happen to fit my criteria. This is neither my fault nor theirs, but it doesn’t make me the culprit if they can’t sell me a horse.
The economic system in this country is based on open competition. That has advantages and drawbacks, and sometimes the system is skewed and not fair OR open. But if I can find a horse that better fits my personal needs in Europe than any horse that I can find using both the internet and typical horse biz channels in this country, AND that horse is going to cost me less, including shipping and exchange rate, I don’t owe it to a US seller to buy here.
If GM can’t get their act together and make efficient cars with good quality, and Toyota can, then the economic system is not supposed to protect GM from Toyota by forcing buyers to purchase American cars–it’s supposed to encourage GM to find ways to compete.
I’ve been hesitating, but after this post, I am going to start a spin-off thread about ways sellers might consider refining their competitive edge in the market, if they wish to do so. If they want to do things their own way, for their own reasons, that’s fine too, but it may or may not be helping them sell horses.
(Oh yeah, my Infiniti was built in NC, so there :winkgrin:)
Th
Do all of you also buy foreign cars and foreign made clothes and work for foreign companies as well?
In my lifetime, I’ve driven a VW, a Mercury, a Toyota, and a Toyota. The Toyota I currently drive was manufactured in Kentucky. Most of my clothing is imported. I buy from American retailers, but very little of my apparel is manufactured in the USA. My company is multi-national but is headquartered conveniently just down the road from Devon.
Actually, I find this answer very interesting.
Lots of people buy foreign cars - one of yours manufactured in Kentucky, but many that people buy imported. I’m really not trying to be confrontational, just very curious, but if imported cars are OK, why not already imported horses - OR horses bred from imported horses? It’s essentially the same thing. You (the generic you) don’t go over to Germany to buy a Mercedes, you buy it here - for several reasons. 1) it has to have American specs to be imported here - or 2) converted at great expense once it gets here or 3) it’s too darn expensive to fly over, pick one out, and arrange to ship it home.
See, in the car world, the manufacturer does the importing for you and you still get to look here. The breeders in this country are analagous to the car manufacturer. We have imported the mares, buy the semen and breed.
Horses are very similar in that they have very different interpretations of PPE’s in Europe, have huge shipping expensis, and have to go through quarantine to make sure they meet ‘American specs’.
I would love to read your marketing ideas. Every little bit helps!!
