Pit bull mix as barn dog?

[RedmondDressage]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;7681614]

How amazing (and I don’t mean this in a good way) is an instruction that goes “Do not leave your pitbull mix free with other dogs without direct supervision”. Dogs so unreliably bred that they require continuous human supervisory attention??? And this is a good thing???[/QUOTE]

IMO this should apply to EVERY dog, not just pitties/mixes. It applies double when you’re rescuing and you do not know the dog’s history. Just like you would never turn out a brand new horse that you know nothing about with an existing horse/group of horses… Until you know a dog, ANY dog, very well they should not be left unattended with each other.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=RedmondDressage;7681704]
IMO this should apply to EVERY dog, not just pitties/mixes. It applies double when you’re rescuing and you do not know the dog’s history. Just like you would never turn out a brand new horse that you know nothing about with an existing horse/group of horses… Until you know a dog, ANY dog, very well they should not be left unattended with each other.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=RedmondDressage;7681704]
IMO this should apply to EVERY dog, not just pitties/mixes. It applies double when you’re rescuing and you do not know the dog’s history. Just like you would never turn out a brand new horse that you know nothing about with an existing horse/group of horses… Until you know a dog, ANY dog, very well they should not be left unattended with each other.[/QUOTE]

You’ve misread the instruction.

Introduction of a new horse should be done professionally. But no matter how well you “manage” the introduction there will be a moment of “sorting out the pecking order” by the horses, themselves. Sometimes it’s over quickly and sometimes it takes several hours. Then it’s over (except for the normal scrapping that goes on in every band of horses). Do you seriously contend that good herd management requires 24/7 human presence in the paddock? The instruction I cited says exactly that for pitt bull cross dogs.

G.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;7681764]
You’ve misread the instruction.

Introduction of a new horse should be done professionally. But no matter how well you “manage” the introduction there will be a moment of “sorting out the pecking order” by the horses, themselves. Sometimes it’s over quickly and sometimes it takes several hours. Then it’s over (except for the normal scrapping that goes on in every band of horses). Do you seriously contend that good herd management requires 24/7 human presence in the paddock? The instruction I cited says exactly that for pitt bull cross dogs.

G.[/QUOTE]
Does it occur to you the instruction is more of a CYA thing given the breed bias??

Regardless, constant supervision should be for ANY dog

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7681772]
Does it occur to you the instruction is more of a CYA thing given the breed bias??

Regardless, constant supervision should be for ANY dog[/QUOTE]

I’m very familar with CYA. But if that is the case why isn’t your thought the CYA?

Dogs are pack animals, the way horses are herd animals. Packs are pyramidal the way herds are pyramidal. If we humans are supposed to constantly supervise packs why don’t we constantly supervise herds?

G.

[beowulf]

Cya - cover your ass.

Shelter probably submits that blurb to CTA, not that the breed or individ. Is agressive but because of public bias/incredence.

[findeight]

But…why then do we breed for good temperment in various domestic and companion animals?

Waste of time and money because it makes no difference, they are all the same mentally and instinctually?

[J-Lu]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;7681614]
Indeed human ignorance is an amazing thing.

The first thing you note about any animal is its breeding. That’s the DNA you have to deal with. Training, conditioning, upbringing, etc. all will affect the manifestation of that DNA but the DNA will always be there.

I’m appalled at the amount of pure anthropomorphism that floats around the animal world. Dogs are not humans; neither are horses, goats, cow, chickens, etc. They are what their DNA tells them to be. We can apply human concepts but that’s mostly trying put a square peg into a round hole. With a big enough hammer you can do that. The process, however, will be tough on the peg, hole, hammer, and hammerer.

How amazing (and I don’t mean this in a good way) is an instruction that goes “Do not leave your pitbull mix free with other dogs without direct supervision”. Dogs so unreliably bred that they require continuous human supervisory attention??? And this is a good thing???

Get whatever kind of dog you want, but keep unreliable, badly trained, ill mannered beasts out of the public domain. Or have deep pockets and be ready to pay for what you break.

G.[/QUOTE]

If you talk to any reliable pit bull rescue, they will say “do not leave your pitbull mix free with other dogs without direct supervision”. Many that end up bred to other breeds (backyard breeding) or end up in shelters (backyard breeding) are derivatives of dog fighting breeding (backyard breeding). If you buy from a breeder with a long history of the bloodlines/temperament, etc, great. If you rescue or happen upon a pit bull mix, you really have to make some assumptions to be safe. One of my employees rehomes rescued pitbulls and he will not have more than one dog at a time and will not place a dog into a home with another dog.

[J-Lu]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;7681764]
You’ve misread the instruction.

Introduction of a new horse should be done professionally. But no matter how well you “manage” the introduction there will be a moment of “sorting out the pecking order” by the horses, themselves. Sometimes it’s over quickly and sometimes it takes several hours. Then it’s over (except for the normal scrapping that goes on in every band of horses). Do you seriously contend that good herd management requires 24/7 human presence in the paddock? The instruction I cited says exactly that for pitt bull cross dogs.

G.[/QUOTE]
How many horse breeds do you know that are bred to fight other horses? I can’t think of any. How many dog breeds are bred specifically to fight other dogs of their breed? I can think of a couple. Are you saying that introducing horses into a normal herd situation is the same as introducing dogs bred to fight dogs into normal pack situations?

[Lindsayah]

Just my two cents…

Pits have a bad rep because they are overbred and undertrained. There are more pits bred (and euthed) everyday than any other breed. That’s why there are more bites. They were not bred originally to kill other dogs so let’s stop saying that their genetics are the reason they are evil. They were bred as sport dogs and are very game. Dog fighters have used these traits for their benefit but there are lots of other “game” breeds out there (like any hunting or herding dog basically) so they are not to kill every dog in sight just because they are pits.

I have 2 pit rescues who live together (gasp, the horror!!) and they get along fine. I took my time and introduced them slowly. I would do that with any breed. The male goes out to the farm and walks fence and is good with that. I hesitate riding with him only because he’s a little oblivious to the large animals and could possibly be trampled as he’s sniffing along. The female doesn’t like grass so I don’t even bother dragging her along. So there is hope for the little boxer/hound/pit pup!! Train him, socialize him with the horses and hopefully he respects them and you’ve got yourself a barn dog!

By the way, he’s absolutely adorbs!

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Lindsayah;7682501]
Just my two cents…

Pits have a bad rep because they are overbred and undertrained. There are more pits bred (and euthed) everyday than any other breed. That’s why there are more bites. [/QUOTE]

Ehh…all dogs can bite. Dachshunds, for example, are known biters.

But…most dogs do not have the ability (or the desire) to maim and/or cause human fatalities. And that is why the pit bull (and its crosses) have been singled out.

Proportionally - very, very few pit bulls, or bully/pit mixes engage in serious bites and/or fatalities (because, fatal dog bites are very rare). But of those that occur…pit bulls, and bully breeds…top the list.

They are more physically capable of doing great harm if there is a problem. Perhaps there are more crazy dachshunds out there (proportionally)…but their ability to do serious harm is minimal.

You are always responsible for your own dog’s actions - however, being responsible for an extremely powerful dog is very different than that taken on by a the owner of toy dog or a 15lb mutt. It is what it is, so prepare for the worst and you’ll be fine.

[khall]

I just do not agree with those who say pit bulls should not be left alone with other dogs. Some yes, but all no. It also depends very much so on the dogs. I also do not agree with pit bulls should only go to only dog homes. Not true unless the dog is truly dog aggressive. Heck I have fostered a former bait dog pit bull and she was not dog aggressive at all. I did have to be careful who she played with because many pit bulls play hard! Some dogs just will not tolerate that type of play. My little bait dog was cat safe, horse safe and so very people friendly she never met a stranger and loved meeting other dogs. She was one of the most stable dogs I have ever had the pleasure of working with. Right now I have two pit bull X fosters, one I do have to be careful with just because she wants to play hard and then gets offended when she gets corrected for her behavior and she is not cat safe. The other is a bit younger, takes correction better from other dogs, but still has little doggie manners. They just have not had proper interactions with other dogs as youngsters, so we are working on it.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=J-Lu;7682328]
How many horse breeds do you know that are bred to fight other horses? I can’t think of any. How many dog breeds are bred specifically to fight other dogs of their breed? I can think of a couple. Are you saying that introducing horses into a normal herd situation is the same as introducing dogs bred to fight dogs into normal pack situations?[/QUOTE]

A comparison between horses and dogs has relevance. Both are group animals and both live in pyramidal societies. Horses are not dogs and generally are not bred to “fight” as some terrier breeds are. Horses, however, weigh in at 1000 pounds or so on a routine basis. They have quick defensive reflexes. Need I say more?

It’s also relevant because this is supposed to be an equine group and we should be able to assume a reasonable amount of equine knowledge. Knowledge transfer from one area to another is a Good Thing.

The salient fact is that the pitt bull community seems to accept that their dogs must be under human supervision 24/7 if other dogs are involved. Having owned dogs since I can remember (somewhere south of 5 years old) I’ve never seen that as a routine canine management practice. We bred St. Bernards and Bernese Mountain Dogs for several years. I never had concerns about turning out our Berners or Saints together. We had visitors who would bring their dogs to our house; we took our dogs to other peoples’ houses. There were occasional “scraps” and that’s perfectly normal. If I had an aggressive dog I’d get rid of it. If I was visiting where I knew a dog was aggressive, I’d leave mine at home. I would certainly NEVER voluntarily acquire a dog that carried that kind of a warning. While such a disclaimer may let the breeder, rescue, etc. off the hook it puts the current owner very seriously ON the hook. If you take into your care, custody and control a dog carrying a warning then you assume the risk of loss if the dog acts “as advertised.” I can’t imagine why anyone would put themselves, and others, at risk in this fashion.

Breeding counts.

G.

[PoohLP]

FYI, Pits cannot lock their jaw. It is a myth. They have a very strong jaw that can hold a lot of pressure, but they cannot lock it. They were not bred to fight dogs. THey were bred to fight bulls. THey were taught to fight dogs, at the direction of their owners, to which they are unfailingly loyal.

I still think there is no reason to assume that dog is a pit. I have several friends who are pit lovers and I live in the south, so I see A LOT of pitties. His head is too small. His shoulder blades look too narrow. His legs are too long. He is a bully breed, yes. Likely a Boxer or American Bulldog. His jowls and forehead look very boxery His spots are very indicative of a pointer or other hound. If he were mine, that is what I would call him.

[gr8fulrider]

[QUOTE=PoohLP;7682900]
FYI, Pits cannot lock their jaw. It is a myth. They have a very strong jaw that can hold a lot of pressure, but they cannot lock it. They were not bred to fight dogs. THey were bred to fight bulls. THey were taught to fight dogs, at the direction of their owners, to which they are unfailingly loyal.

I still think there is no reason to assume that dog is a pit. I have several friends who are pit lovers and I live in the south, so I see A LOT of pitties. His head is too small. His shoulder blades look too narrow. His legs are too long. He is a bully breed, yes. Likely a Boxer or American Bulldog. His jowls and forehead look very boxery His spots are very indicative of a pointer or other hound. If he were mine, that is what I would call him.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for this. I didn’t want to be argumentative because I came on here for honest feedback but I was tempted to set the record straight about the locking jaw myth.

I see many pit bulls in the neighborhood too-- they are very popular among Washington, DC yuppie dog park denizens-- and this one is looking less like a pit bull the more pix I find (rescue group has many).

Here are a few more-- I would love more guesses about his parentage:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t1.0-9/10334449_680727968631542_8360376709617074018_n.jpg

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10365841_680728001964872_2418857542723148851_n.jpg?oh=f8e6dfe470b04fae4758c42defb4dd2e&oe=5442A3A3

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10505590_694122997292039_2163920082117695756_n.jpg?oh=c596dabe81b43e5ab4ed87391eaeeb7f&oe=5451E460&gda=1413378520_bff5686a72e9593c9dfdc2d690c7bfbe

[findeight]

Looks more mix then Pit. All the loose skin around the face and neck look more on the hound side to me, something like a Beagle maybe( does he bark a lot), Bassett? Touch of a Boxer? And a little Pit.

Breed cliches aside, unknown parentage can mean unknown traits in anything. Think that’s what many are reacting to when advising caution, especially with a “bully” breed or more aggressive working dogs in which those traits might have been overbred for. Not to mention early puppyhood experiences before it went stray or was turned over.

[gr8fulrider]

[QUOTE=findeight;7683026]
Looks more mix then Pit. All the loose skin around the face and neck look more on the hound side to me, something like a Beagle maybe( does he bark a lot), Bassett? Touch of a Boxer? And a little Pit.

Breed cliches aside, unknown parentage can mean unknown traits in anything. Think that’s what many are reacting to when advising caution, especially with a “bully” breed or more aggressive working dogs in which those traits might have been overbred for. Not to mention early puppyhood experiences before it went stray or was turned over.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. He is about 30+ pounds at 4 months old and has huge feet, so although there might be some beagle in there, there is also something HUGE in his parentage. I think he’ll max out above 70 pounds. He barely barks. According to the fosters, he whines a bit.

Fortunately, there are no early puppyhood traumas. I couldn’t deal with that after our last dog, who was found by the side of the road at about 1 year old and had clearly been beaten. He remained touchy about his butt and afraid of brooms, mops, and even umbrellas for the rest of his life.

This puppy’s story is not very mysterious. When he was 10 weeks old his owner brought him to a dog park and asked people to consider taking him in because he was losing his apartment. The owner had him since weaning. Since age 10 weeks he’s been in a foster home with other dogs. The rescue doesn’t seem to have the story about the puppy’s first six weeks, though.

I agree about the challenges of mixes-- you just don’t know which traits you’re going to get. That’s why I always chime in to remind people that a draft X is just as likely to be a hot stump-pulling machine as a quiet athlete.

A lot of food for thought here.

[Justmyluck]

A lack of socialization both human and dog sets dogs up to fail. The greatest harm is that people do not socialize their dogs because they are scared of what people will think. This then sets the dog up to fail because they haven’t had enough human/dog or dog/dog reactions to know how to deal with certain situations.

[danceronice]

…HUGE. That’s what I’m getting. He looks like a puppy who needs to grow into enormous feet and legs.

[khall]

Could there be Dane in there? You know, really who cares. Looks like a very nice puppy, he has had a good start in life and he will be fine and make a lovely addition to your family. Congratulations!!