Well…based on personal experience… I totally disagree with above statement in blue.
Perhaps I am too much of an optimist, but I think you are waaayyyy too concerned about what the rads show.
I bought a 2-yr old Hanoverian that I would never had been able to afford because the price was right, because the breeder was ill and doing a herd dispersal.
It was disclosed to me that the left hock had “bad X-rays”…bone chip or something (its been a while.) I got the X-ray of the hock and showed the X-rays to a friend’s father who was an orthopedist. He said “Pfhhhhttt…not a problem.” So I bought the horse.
After the fact, I showed the X-rays to a vet at a well regarded vet clinic. That vet said, “Don’t buy the horse.” Well, too late…I had had the horse for about 6 months.
Fast forward 10 years…I am thinking of selling the horse, so I take it to New Bolton where they do Bi-Lateral radiographs. Well, guess what??? The radiographs of the Right Hock looked worse than the left. AND…MORE IMPORTANTLY… the radiograph of the left hock showed that there had not been any changes to the joint in 8 years.
The horse never took a lame step. He was a cross country machine and was the “go-to” horse when someone needed a horse to go out cross country with.
So, if I had been concerned about the radiographic findings, I would have missed out on a great horse. The sale of that horse went flawlessly because I had the early radiographs, from before the horse started work and after years later to show the joint had not changed.
So…if this is a resale project…then you have proof of the status of the joint at the start of training. If the horse will be a resale project and does well in training and showing you will have proof that the radiographic findings are not significant.
Basically…my approach to horse buying is that they are horses and a nano-second away from injury. I prefer to vet the Seller…I especially I DO NOT pay attention to radiographs. I prefer a PPE that is a clinical exam to test for basic soundness.
The Seller has lived with the animal and knows its personality, history and any instances of injury.
OP - re the sentence in blue above and related comments: it seems to me that if he palpates sore NOW and that was a factor in your xray issue, then the KS (or something) seems to be bothering him NOW. So I’m confused a bit as to how you can be wondering if it will or wont bother him going forward.
If I were in your shoes, I’d have the attorney conversation, but realistically I wouldn’t spend a lot of time or money as I dont think your odds are very good for any payout of significance. I know its hard, as emotions get in the way, and I do think you got shafted in some way.
I’d be thinking more about the options for this horse. Is he insured? Cost/benefit of treatment options, Etc.
Ok…I focused on all the angst about radiographs and missed the part that the horse was sore in the back.
With that said…I still say that radiographs are only an adjunct to a clinical finding.
If the horse was back sore, I would FIRST look at saddle fit and how the animal was being ridden before jumping to conclude that the soreness/problem was due “kissing spines”.
Musculoskeletal issues produce back soreness. How hard is this horse being worked? If this is a resale project, usually the trainer is “on a timeline”…So is the horse being pushed too hard or beyond its current level of fitness?.
Some horses have a tremendous work ethic and will work themselves until they are sore…or worse until they break. A friend of mine let a clinician ride her horse and the horse paid for that error in the owner’s judgement.
I can tell you after having broken young horses and they seem to mature at different ages…both mentally and physically. I helped a friend with a mare (beautiful animal by an Iron Spring Farm stallion) who looked like she could do GP dressage standing still as a 3 year old.
The friend got bucked off the mare and sent her to a local “trainer”. This trainer pushed the mare beyond her physical capabilities and basically taught the mare to fight to protect herself. It became a project to help out friend and her horse.
When we started to work the mare, we found the mare so stiff and unfit that she fell down when asked to canter a simple circle…on the lunge. We had to go to the beginning, to get the mare to trust and just to build up her fitness.
Also, if the horse is a mare, ovarian tumors also present as sore back issues.
Correlation is not causation. Just because (a) the horse has a sore back; and (b) the vet interprets radiographs as “kissing spines”…I would not rule out some other root cause for a back soreness.
I know a horse with high Lyme titers that presents with a sore back.
Not to discount the back soreness, but I think I would continue to investigate other potential causes of that soreness rather than jumping to conclude “kissing spines.”
I might be tempted to let the horse out on pasture for a couple of weeks, maybe with some bute or previcoxx then palpate the back after the 'tincture of time" has passed and start further diagnostics from there.
When palpated by a vet, the horse exhibits pain in the area where the kissing spine is located.
When I did my ppe, he palpated sore, I asked for radiographs of the back. The reason I was willing to allow for the back soreness and still buy the horse was due to the fact that he had just come from the breaker in a western saddle (and I had clear radiographs). So far there are viewpoints on this thread that I should have passed on the horse due to palpation of soreness all the way to that the radiographs should be ignored (sorry, kind of amusing).
Since purchasing the horse he has been in proper work for an animal of his age, working on flat work, steering, poles, adjustability, cavaletti, and small jumps. Thus far he has shown no signs of soreness while under saddle, or lameness while in work.
When the new buyer did their ppe, he palpated sore in the back (again). They radiographed and found the kissing spine in the area that was not done in my ppe.
After talking with a kissing spine expert a horse can palpate sore and never express signs undersaddle. A horse can have a rad much worse than mine and never exhibit signs under saddle, or a horse can have rads that are much less than mine and never be able to work. So, you just never know, it’s horses and it’s the reason why the previous poster had a horse with the worst hock xray ever and never took a lame step, while I had a horse that had clean hock xrays but constant fluid in the hock and hock issues.
The point, however is that I went looking for kissing spine and it was missed. I wouldn’t have purchased the horse if it had been found. Not whether or not the horse will be lame or won’t. The fact is it will always be on a PPE and at this point I have had 6 vets look at the rads and none have had a good outlook for him to be anything much beyond a pleasure horse. Only time will tell if that is true, but he’s not an international derby prospect as I had planned.
If you didn’t insist on the full spine radiographs and asked to examine the full set of radiographs because of the vet’s assurance, technically vet didn’t do anything wrong other than not take full spine radiographs. He could not have diagnosed it or missed it because he didn’t have radiographs to know it existed. In this case some of the responsibility lies with you for not insisting on the full spine radiographs, regardless of vets assurance. Maybe there was some confusion with you not understanding full ones were done but you were satisfied and bought the horse. I think it would be very hard to prove negligence or fraud on the vets part. I agree with others that have said it falls under buyer beware.
Maybe but 99% of them are not going to put that in writing for use in court and 0% would testify without compensation as an expert witness. Knowing the other side will have their compensated experts saying the opposite.
What do you have in writing as far as what you ordered them to perform? Do you have a copy of the itemized bill you paid. If this is mostly he said, she said it’s really hard to prove malpractice. And did the vet give you a written OPINION of his PPE findings specifically stating he saw no signs of KS? Or was it the usual " In my OPINION , the horse is currently sound and suitable for the stated, intended propose’" 7 months ago when he examined the horse?
Vet could be a quack working for seller for all I know. But there’s a reason many vets are backing away from stating anything other then in their opinion it’s suitable for intended purposes as of the day they performed the PPE. Or aren’t doing PPEs anymore at all.
How was I to “insist” on full spine radiographs if I have no idea what that means? He didn’t have the radiographs to know it existed because he didn’t take them.
You were asking for them but you did’nt know what that meant? We’re you specific on what area the horse was sore and to x-Ray that area?
That’s my point he didn’t take the radiographs of the specific area where the horse was sore, so he would not have been aware of any pre-existing condition in that area. Now whether he intentionally did so, didn’t understand exactly what areas you wanted x-rayed or just didn’t feel it was necessary is on him but you will have to prove that was the case.
See what your lawyer says but…lawyer might just file an action to get the vets insurance company to settle for a lesser amount and take a 30% fee out of it. Youd need substantial proof of negligence for malpractice and a bigger settlement. Not sure you have that. I mean you say you wanted full back x rays, vet says he understood you wanted x rays for KS and in his opinion based on his experience you got x rays of the area where KS is usually found. Nothing in writing about KS positive or negative, nothing in writing about a sore back and he can say his recollections of a single case in a busy practice 7 months ago are vague and be perfectly truthful.
There’s differing opinions out there on KS too. Think it will be tough and expensive to get anywhere with this.
You are being way too negative on this. You are obsessed about the radiographs and ignoring the fact that you have a horse that is riding sound and performing as expected at this stage of his training.
Continue to ride and train him. He will either continue to improve in his work…or he won’t.
There is a concept of “sunk cost.” Instead of spending money on attorneys, continue to work the horse. He will either continue to improve or he won’t. A knowledgeable buyer will see past questionable radiographs if the horse is performing his job well.
Jesus, OP. My heart goes out to you. Sounds to me like you did everything you could, short of operating the Xray machine yourself, to ensure a full set of xrays were taken of the back. I’m not sure how you could have been more specific. For what it’s worth, I have had two different vets at two separate practices shoot a full set of rads on the back as part of an overall lameness evaluation on different horses. Neither one conveniently “missed” a section of the back. That sounds highly suspicious to me.
I hope that you choose to pursue some sort of compensation. It sounds like best practices were not followed, and you will be the one to bear the consequences. Heartbreaking postion to be in. You have my full sympathy.
I think that is a strong piece of information. 2 other vets saying the set of xrays from PPE does not conform with what they consider standard given how the horse presented back sore at PPE and your request for full xrays/ eval for kissing spines.
In regards to comments about you didn’t state in writing “full set”. 1.) personal accounts of verbal contract ARE ADMISSABLE. Any 2 bit hustling lawyer will tell you yes, written contract is good proof, but verbal contracts are also equally binding. Verbal contracts are often enforced, especially in situation such as this where you have contracted with a professional vet to conduct services for which do not constitute “common knowledge”. You do not roll up in a DVM or MD office with your contract lawyer parsing fine print over whether your PPE on a back sore horse that you want to rule out KS and request a full set spine xrays—there is precedence here …people do not make the DVM or MD sit down and sign their own contracts for services—it is precedent, you request services they provide services------------------however, it is at this point I suggest you review the billing statement for the PPE. What does it itemize or identify? This could be helpful…if it says full set spine xrays that’s helpful…but if it’s just a hand written note thanks for the payment that’s helpful too because you argue again : how am I supposed to know what was done to question the trained professional vet and their word/ expertise?
Also, I want to mention, think very carefully if there is any way at all there is a link between the seller, breeder, trainer, grooms, previous vet—any one at all that could be a link between the PPE vet and that horse. You would be @#$% surprised what goes down with connections… really. Just reflect on that carefully in the event there could be a unknown link in there. It’s pretty distinctive for a normal view in a set of xrays to be conspicuously absent. Just to play that line of thought out, examples…the file got accidentally deleted on digital machine/ the tech who was supposed to set them up, send to yu whatever made a mistake/ vet made a mistake and didn’t save that view/ deleted the view/ didn’t realize till after the fact the view was not there not good whatever----this is just a sampling of unknowns that at the end of day could legitimately be mistakes, mistakes that you are legit owed compensation for.
Just to present some examples of things I have seen happen often:
trainer that travels for clinics has clients that are in different regions, will likely never know each other. One has a horse for sale. Trainer may say, oh my other student has this horse you might be interested in. Trainer has a deal with seller to take a cut, plus may contract with buyer for additional brokering/ training up etc. Now—here’s where it can get $hitty. Trainer and seller know horse has a issue. They may think, well, horse if going to easier ride or this or that justify not disclosing. Here’s where it get’s more $hitty…trainer/seller one other or both may have a connection to a vet that could be used at PPE, could be a 3 degree seperation, like it’s the original breeder knows the vet, or another trainer friendly with knows the vet…but they have a connection to a vet that they know is unlikely to flunk the PPE for any number of reasosn, like they know that vet doesn’t consider the issue much of a issue, they know they suck at xrays, their kids are in soccer together and their chummy and unlikely to red flag anything because they like the work they send 3 degress seperation their way----it’s networking. Anyway, ultimately you have a horse with a hidden issue,as many issues are not so bad or not bad yet hence why people don’t by dead lame funked up horses but do PPE to get some idea of whether they have decent odds of it not becoming a funked up dead lame horse. And —very very often the trainer then says, yes do a PPE, my friends recommended a vet there, not sellers vet, etc, good vet, they may even say they know them/ used them on another purchase for client because…their student trusts them.
Anyway—that’s a really common scenario people get into and are wholly unaware of.
I know of a wannabe BNT who I’ve never seen NOT palm a banged up horse from one student to another, taking a cut. And all the students in this one area…they all PPE thru the trainers vet!!! And I kid you not…they are not clean PPE by a long shot. I saw one with heaves, one with a back problem ( they injected it with botox or some damn thing before the PPE…really) , another with fetlock problem, another with no cartilage in it’s hock. The Heaves horse of course arrived at it’s new place and after the dex worse off had…heaves and cough. The back horse, I don’t know what happened, went several states away but the whole reason they sold him was…his back hurt, the bum hock horse was permanently retired a year later when at a competition it came up 3 legged lame, was taken to a big clinic/uni vet hosp and the xrays showed the hock was SOL no cartilage, bone on bone, significant advanced OA.
I’m not saying this happened here at all—just giving example of how it could be good to carefully reflect whether there could be any shady connections between PPE vet, horse and its former connections.
oh and…don’t let coth comments get to you. Let your attorney advise based on information.
My ending thoughts on this whole situation is yeah you could sue. Will you win? Doubtful. As I said before I learned as a beginner rider many years ago that you ONLY trust your vet for the PPE. I have no problem using a different vet for a PPE but my vet will be the one looking everything over before I buy.
I get you are upset and I totally understand that, however, you do need to take some responsibility for not doing your due diligence in this process. I hope you can find a solution.
I’m glad you’ve had such great experience with bad rads, but no matter what, I wouldn’t have bought the horse had I known the existed. That’s the end of the conversation for this thread. I have found him a free lease situation for a pleasure type home. Which is what I believe is the right thing to do for the horse and for me.
