Pre Purchase Exam Issue

[twixNnater]

Additional insight for future purposes…

• It sounds like the seller flips horses/is a bit of a horse dealer. If that's the case, then they may not know the horse well enough (or care enough) to discover lameness issues, especially if they're subtle. Plus, the less money they put into the horse, the more money they make.
• So the seller trains has lots of clients? What kind of clients? I know plenty of trainers that don't know sh*t, but they get lots of clients and those clients ride around terribly and it's scary.
• I think you mentioned your trainer was friends with this dealer? Does your trainer get a lot of horses from them too? Either way, I'd be wary that there could be a commission deal going on. Even if you aren't directly being charged commission they could still have a deal around the asking price to get both of they a cut.
• Lameness. See first bullet + the seller figures they can find a sucker that doesn't notice the horse is lame, so why bother with you.
• Shoes. Is this an OTTB? If so, it kinda doesn't surprise me that she has some corrective shoeing. Their feet can get pretty torn up, they wear down differently then for our purposes, and those racing plates don't do much. If not an OTTB, then she just got stuck with naturally crappy feet or had some crappy farrier work at some point. [LIST]
• However, I'm a little surprised the seller bothered to pay for the corrective shoes. Unless he got her from a rescue and they put on the shoes. I'll throw out a guess that they may have needed to put those on just to get her to as sound as she is now. A good reason why he won't let you pull them off for x-rays. If she comes up limping lame walking out of her stall, you're easily going to turn her down

[/LIST] THERE IS NO OTHER BUYER...With horse flipper/dealer there virtually never is.

I wish you good luck in your search for the next one. My trainer used to say every time, “Don’t worry, there’s always another horse.”

[mvp]

@Hunter50

I appreciate all the comments. I did not know about the corrective shoeing prior to when I went out to meet and ride the filly. The seller did not disclose this until after I rode the filly and asked if I could lead, untack and groom her. During this process, I asked how the filly was about having her feet picked up. That’s when the seller disclosed that she had pads in her feet. He did not explain all the piece parts of her shoeing, and I could not discern everything by looking at her hooves.

Please keep the comments coming. I appreciate the shared experiences and knowledge. I made the original post because I knew the purchase was not going in the right direction, but I was confused about why I was running into all these issues with a trainer that has such a good reputation.

These are wedge pads on a 3-year-old?

IMO, you would have seen those. How many degrees? I’d worry about a horse that young who was given that kind of corrective shoeing. To me, wedge pads seem aggressive for such a young horse.

ETA: I believe there is one view of the navicular bone that you can take with shoes on.

[TXnGA]

I would pass unless more radiographs can be done. I just went through a thorough ppe and the vet was able to take all radiographs of every angle and leave shoes in place. He had a special built stand, but it was nice to not have to pull the shoes.

there may or may not be a buyer but as the buyer you have the right to radiographs anything you want before you purchase- IMO. If not, walk. And whoever would buy a horse from a seller who won’t allow you to do a thorough ppe is taking a huge risk.

may I ask what price range the horse is? 4 figures/ 5 figures/ etc? That also dictates what I do in a ppe, but if the seller is saying no to something you want to radiograph- walk.

[Hunter50]

twixNnater - Good information. A quick clarification - my trainer is not friends with the seller. My trainer was not involved in this particular situation. The horse is not an OTTB.

I really appreciate the info in your reply.

[hoopoe]

this is a bit of an open question. Would a farrier enter into corrective pad /wedge/angles / correction, without Radiographs?. I have had few situations involving this and it was always after films.

[Hunter50]

hoodoo - I don’t think the farrier had radiographs before he put on the corrective shoes.

[Hunter50]

mvp - the vet did get one radiograph view with the shoes on. While the view was helpful, it didn’t give a full picture of all angles of the hoof. That is why the vet recommended taking more radiographs of the hoof.

[rothmpp]

Yeah, I’d have passed, too. Partly because I’d be concerned about what else the trainer did not feel necessary to disclose about this horse.

My guess at the unwillingness to remove the shoes is a combination of knowing there is something going on in the foot other than thin soles, maybe even including thin walls that aren’t going to tolerate having shoes removed and reset off cycle.

I knew a trainer who had her 3yo in shoes and pads, because he was a giant -17.2 on his 3rd birthday and still growing like a weed - and needed the support. But she wasn’t trying to sell the horse either.

[tohorse]

Just literally had the same situation happen (front leg, mild lameness, pressure from agent) and I shoed the horse at my own expense… It almost begs to ask if it’s not the same horse, because it sounds eerily similar. Horse was fabulous, but also the upper end of my budget. With a heavy heart and very expensive vetting process I passed and felt instantly relieved that I did. I’m looking at less expensive horses now and for a fraction of the price I’m much more ready to take some gambles if I really like the horse. Hope this helps!

[paw]

I think it boils down to “there are better horses out there”. Perhaps I would consider taking a horse for free in this situation. But free horses also cost $$$. I can’t think of a reason that I would purchase a 3 year old in wedge pads.

[mvp]

@rothmpp

Yeah, I’d have passed, too. Partly because I’d be concerned about what else the trainer did not feel necessary to disclose about this horse.

My guess at the unwillingness to remove the shoes is a combination of knowing there is something going on in the foot other than thin soles, maybe even including thin walls that aren’t going to tolerate having shoes removed and reset off cycle.

I knew a trainer who had her 3yo in shoes and pads, because he was a giant -17.2 on his 3rd birthday and still growing like a weed - and needed the support. But she wasn’t trying to sell the horse either.

Meh… if I had a horse with soles that thin such that she (as a young’n maybe not working way hard?) needed shoes and pads, I’d be loathe to take them off, nail them back on and hope the filly would be sound enough for the next viewer a couple of days later.

That said, I’d try very hard not to buy a horse with the genetics of very thin soles. I’m not sure I know the whole story behind how this young horse got sore enough to need all that shoeing. But! There is a possibility that this “babysit those thin soles” could become your problem as well. I watch my friends who have TBs with poor feet and I feel bad for the way that can determine so many things about that horse’s schedule.

[staceymc]

I wouldn’t buy any horse without being allowed to pull the shoes and take radiographs. Period. Full stop. End of story. NEXT.

[Cameraine]

I agree with the majority of posters. If the seller, any seller, not just this specific situation, would not let me do something as basic as radiographs of feet, I would run, run, run far away. There are so many nice horses without the kind of issues that could be hiding there. As the owner of an OTTB with truly crappy front feet I can tell you first hand that good feet are essential!

[Xctrygirl]

Bigger question for me…

You were looking at this horse without your trainer but you couldn’t notice degree pads when looking at the horse just standing there on your own.

I’m glad you’re passing but I would politely suggest that you not skip having your trainer involved if your eye is not as attuned to notice basic things from moment one.

We have ALL had to learn as we progressed and I would say this is a good moment to be thankful to having dodged a bullet, but your education still is in process. So don’t leave your chosen teacher behind as you move forward on your search.

Good luck!!

Emily

[trubandloki]

@Xctrygirl

You were looking at this horse without your trainer but you couldn’t notice degree pads when looking at the horse just standing there on your own.

This does not make me cringe or anything. (Though I like it that the OP has something new to make sure they notice.)
If the horse was presented in places where parts of their feet were always covered (a stall with bedding, a riding ring, grass), I can totally see someone who is not looking for an issue to not noticed wedge pads.

[findeight]

Bringing your trainer would have saved you the cost of the PPE here, likely more then s/he would have charged you. Nothing can replace the time and emotional involvement. While we do learn from mistakes, its better to learn before spending money on them and getting your heart broken.

Theres a reason even very experienced horse owners seek second opinions before investing time, money and emotion into a prospective purchase. And a reason for a close look at the horse standing square on hard and level ground before anything else. Those wedgies are expensive and for more then temporary thin soles. Especially on 3 year old.

Most unusual for a professional dealer/ seller to spend that much on a sale horse unless it was the only way to present it sound. OP dodged a bullet here and should not make excuses for non disclosure, refusing to allow the shoe pull and pulling the old “ hurry, hurry, if you don’t buy right now another buyer is waiting”. Thats 3 strikes and the most common in closing sales with doubtful buyers.

Sometimes reputation is more barn gossip then actual first hand experience dealing directly with and trainer or dealer. Another lesson learned without major expense and time wasted.

[Hunter50]

Thank you for all the information and input. I knew things were off with this purchase experience, but I needed to write down all the details and bounce my experience off of others. You have been very helpful, and I am grateful.

For those wondering why I did not have a trainer with me when viewing the filly - there are not many trainers in this area; some are part time, and it is hard to coordinate a time to view a horse together (much less view multiple horses in different locations); many trainers have young children and just are not available for horse viewing right now because they are doing all they can to keep up with their children’s online schooling and take care of their own farms and horses.

i think I have what I need from this post, so I plan to stop monitoring further comments. Thanks again!

[Xanthoria]

@Hunter50

Before I scheduled a time to meet the filly and try her out, I asked the seller if she had any health, medical or soundness issues. He did not disclose the corrective shoeing at this time.

I think it’s pretty easy for some sellers to say “no no this horse is fine” on the phone. What you need to do is get it in writing in case you have to go back and prove they lied.

I ask specific questions: has this horse ever colicked? Has this horse ever been lame? Has this horse ever had any joint injections? Are they on bute? Ever had tildren or osphos? What exactly does this horse eat including supplements? What kind of shoes are they wearing? Have they ever had ulcers? Been tested for or suspected of having PSSM? Neurologic issues? What deworming and dental protocol do you follow? Will you release all vet records to my vet? etc etc etc

As these questions one by one before you see the horse. When PPE time comes, my vet has all this printed out on a form the seller has to fill in, sign and date. In front of the vet. Yep, that can cause some HARD thinking… won’t fill it out? Won’t release vet record? Won’t pull shoes? Won’t allow you to draw blood to test for painkillers or sedatives? NO SALE.

I know it can be hard to drag people through a million questions when you’re excited about a horse but an honest seller will volunteer this info and welcome the idea that you care enough to ask.

[Hunter50]

@tohorse

Just literally had the same situation happen (front leg, mild lameness, pressure from agent) and I shoed the horse at my own expense… It almost begs to ask if it’s not the same horse, because it sounds eerily similar. Horse was fabulous, but also the upper end of my budget. With a heavy heart and very expensive vetting process I passed and felt instantly relieved that I did. I’m looking at less expensive horses now and for a fraction of the price I’m much more ready to take some gambles if I really like the horse. Hope this helps!

Oh no. I’m sorry that you ran into a similar situation. I’m glad that you decided to keep looking. I always feel sad for the horses when the sellers aren’t forthcoming with information. I know that horses are never perfect. They all come with their own confirmation, breed, discipline, age related things. The vet and I had talked about the type of maintenance things that I felt comfortable taking on with a new horse. Without the addtional radiographs, the vet and I did not know what I could be taking on. Honesty helps the seller, buyer, and most importantly, the horse.

[mvp]

@trubandloki

This does not make me cringe or anything. (Though I like it that the OP has something new to make sure they notice.)
If the horse was presented in places where parts of their feet were always covered (a stall with bedding, a riding ring, grass), I can totally see someone who is not looking for an issue to not noticed wedge pads.

Hehe. I’d notice. I’d make 'em stand the horse up on concrete. I’d see the wedges. I’d ask how many degrees. I’d bring with me my opinion about how tall they were and another one about how many degrees is too many. I’d poker face that, as I’m a buyer and a lowly amateur. But I’d have an opinion, too, if the seller didn’t know and couldn’t answer whatever probing questions I had about the corrective shoeing.

Maybe y’all are psyched that I wasn’t your buyer. But I’d keep my opinions to myself (or try to or think I was, LOL).