Prefix opinion sought

[PonyMommy]

It came to my attention another breeder was claiming credit for a pony registered under a different prefix and naming it with their prefix which the pony in question has NEVER carried. Seeking outside opinions. I am not using names, and would ask all comments not to use names and only offer input on the facts.

1). Breeder offers for sale MareX as open broodmare as the breeder in their own public words hasn’t fallen in love with MareX.
2). Breeder does not ever register MareX in their name and continues to try and sell MareX and even leases MareX for a short time.
3). Breeder publically says reason for sale is because they do not think MareX is a good match for their stallion.
4). Breeder A disenchanted with still having MareX after trying to sell for several years advertises MareX as OPEN broodmare at fire sale price.
5). MareX sells same day to Buyer who thought pony was cute and bought to train as child’s pony.
6). Buyer loves MareX and registers MareX so child can show pony in Welsh shows.
7). Buyer and child take welsh showing in hand lessons, break pony under saddle and even take to Welsh show together.
8.) Buyer starts worrying about condition of MareX TEN MONTHS after purchasing MareX and has vet out and the vet tells Buyer MareX is pregnant.
9). Buyer and child love MareX and despite unexpected financial burden of unexpected foal prepare and choose and register prefix.
10) Buyer delivers filly to MareX at their farm, and loves beautiful foal.
11). Buyer wants to register the “UNPLANNED” foal and goes to the Breeder and gets stallion certificate because only ONE stallion at Breeders farm so only one plausible sire in addition the stallion has stamped his look on the foal.
12). Buyer takes stallion certificate mails in to Welsh Assoc and personally pays for it to be filed. Buyer also completes paperwork to register this unplanned foal with VPBA, Welsh assoc and USEF.
13). Buyer happily raises, and trains the unplanned foal.
14). Buyer loves MareX and subsequently has several more foals and gets more into breeding.
15). Four years pass and Buyer learns Breeder who sold MareX as open and clearly never planned the surprise foal in question is claiming the pony in question as one of the ponies they planned and bred and publically listing it under their Breeder’s prefix which the pony NEVER carried.
16). Buyer thinks Breeder is in the wrong and should not be claiming unplanned foal from MareX under Breeders prefix.

So, what’s your opinion on these facts? Should the unplanned foal be publically affiliated with the breeder who sold MareX as open?

[ladyj79]

Meh, what people should do and what they choose to do are often two different animals.

if breeder has stolen pics of surprise baby up, she can ask her to remove, but otherwise, meh, no one cares or is likely paying attention to what irresponsible breeder is doing except friend and possibly others watching mindless drama unfold.

I grew up in Welsh world, this is probably a nutto you role your eyes at and let it go.

[Laurierace]

Who cares? The breeder has no claim to the foal, if she disagrees with that she can take them to court and lose.

[PonyMommy]

@ladyj79

Meh, what people should do and what they choose to do are often two different animals.

if breeder has stolen pics of surprise baby up, she can ask her to remove, but otherwise, meh, no one cares or is likely paying attention to what irresponsible breeder is doing except friend and possibly others watching mindless drama unfold.

I grew up in Welsh world, this is probably a nutto you role your eyes at and let it go.

[PonyMommy]

Thanks ladyj79, the picture used without permission was removed, and happy to know the general public classifies behavior as “nutto” and will forget about it.

[Daventry]

Planned or unplanned, the “Breeder” IS the breeder of MareX’s foal. She owned the mare and the stallion at the time of the breeding. In another world, Breeder would have been well within their right to register the foal using their own prefix.

You’ve already stated you went ahead and registered the foal. The Breeder in question should be listed as the breeder on the registration certificate. (You would simply become the first owner after the foal was born.) You already mentioned the picture being used without permission was taken down. I honestly wouldn’t put any more effort into it at this point. They are the breeder of the foal…and as ladyj79 mentioned above, people will do whatever they want. I don’t think the horse world is going to care one way or the other. You have to decide whether this is a hill you want to die on. The bigger question is, how long are you going to let Breeder rent a space in your head? Personally, I would just move on, ignore Breeder and enjoy your pony.

[va2txrider]

I think who the breeder is depends on the registry. For some, it is the person who owned the broodmare at the time of the breeding. For others (JC?), I think it is who owns the broodmare at the time of foaling. I would check with the welsh and va breeders to see how they define who the breeder is.

[Daventry]

@va2txrider

I think who the breeder is depends on the registry. For some, it is the person who owned the broodmare at the time of the breeding. For others (JC?), I think it is who owns the broodmare at the time of foaling. I would check with the welsh and va breeders to see how they define who the breeder is.

Agreed! OP already stated the foal has been registered with the Welsh Pony & Cob Society of America (WPCSA) and the Virginia Pony Breeders Association (VPBA). As a long time pony breeder myself, I can confidently state that the WPCSA considers a breeder as, “the recorded owner or lessee of Dam at time of service.”

Under VPBA rules, the breeder is considered the owner of the dam at the time of foaling. The VPBA does this so that pony foals born within Virginia, i.e. out of a newly purchased broodmare, can participate in their Pony Futurities and earn VPBA Year-End awards. Unfortunately, it causes a lot of confusion when the VPBA does not keep the same basic registry rules as the WPCSA, as many ponies are double registered with these two associations.

With this being either a Welsh or Welsh cross foal, traditionally, the breeder is the person who owned the dam at the time of service (breeding).

[PonyMommy]

Agree completely, because the Breeder didn’t intend to breed foal MareX was never registered to Breeder. The owner registered MareX at purchase to show as riding pony and is therefore the recorded owner with the WPSCA. Owner only became interested in topic after being contacted by multiple pony breeders that Owner was being negatively discussed on public forums by name regarding the foal of MareX. Appreciate your input, interesting discussion on prefixes.

[Daventry]

@PonyMommy

because the Breeder didn’t intend to breed foal MareX was never registered to Breeder…

Just because a breeder didn’t “intend” to breed a mare dones’t mean they automatically lose their right to be the breeder. Accidents do happen!

As an FYI, I have absolutely no idea what breeder or pony the OP is discussing. I try and steer clear of drama and have absolutely no dog in this fight. Just simply stating the facts of what constitutes a breeder in the pony breeding world. Clearly, owner of the foal can either argue the WPCSA rules or the VPBA rules. Just further proof that the equine breeding world can be so ridiculous at times.

[ladyj79]

I think what OP is saying is that the breeder never transferred registration of baby mama into their name, ie they were never the recorded owner on the papers of said welshy, which makes things a little more complicated with regards to that question I mean, they were literally the breeder, but neither owned nor leased the mare on the papers.

[ladyj79]

Regardless, agree with eyeroll and move on. Crazy is as crazy does.

[Daventry]

@ladyj79

Regardless, agree with eyeroll and move on. Crazy is as crazy does.

Yep, it really is a moot point. Move on and enjoy the pony.

[Scribbler]

I see people rename horses all the time. I see trainers and lesson programs renaming random purchases as “Muddy Acres Superstar Dobbin” even when they didn’t breed them. Is meaningless in this situation.

If foal is registered by the owner at time of birth and still owns the horse, but breeder has the foal up on the website with a made-up name that it isn’t registered as, well, that makes it pretty hard for anyone to research the career of that foal.

Thats not changing the name of the horse. That’s just misrepresenting the horse.

[VirginiaBred]

People renaming an animal happens frequently. People that drop a registered prefix aren’t helping anyone, especially if it’s a well-known prefix. In the Virginia Pony Breeders Association, you pay to have a prefix registered. If a registered prefix is then to be dropped from a name after the pony is sold, a fee must be paid to the VPBA in order for that to happen.

People that ADD a prefix to an animal they didn’t breed is horrible and taking credit for something they have no right to. I knew of some folks that bought ponies and then registered them with their farm prefix to make it seem as if they thought out the pedigree and bred the mare. That is an insult to a legitimate breeder. If you are an established breeder, you take time and thought to carefully make a decision on what stallion to cross with what mare. It’s an art!

The American Jockey Club consideres the breeder as the owner of the mare at the time of delivery. The Virginia Pony Breeders Association followed their lead and also consideres the breeder to be the owner of the mare at time of delivery. The Welsh Pony and Cob Society of America considers the breeder to be the person behind the idea, even if the mare is then sold prior to delivery. I wish that all organizations followed the same guidelines.

In a case such as the original poster has brought forward, I can see both sides of the situation. I think that considering the mare was to be sold and the for sale ads plainly say she is open and not a good match for the stallion…to me the previous owner of the mare has lost out and doesn’t have a claim to the foal even though it’s obviously by that stallion.

Microchip your foals! Life record them with the USEF in the year of their birth!
Not only is it less expensive but that way you are responsible for all the information given to our parent organization.

[PonyMommy]

Breeders friend posted same Question and it’s answered definitively on Facebook Pony Breeding Forum and top Pony Breeders in US all agreed it’s prefix of registered mare owner at time of foaling unless written otherwise in sales contract, or can use prefix of breeder if desired only with permission. No longer a grey area…appreciate all input.