Presidential Modification to Amateur Rule

[MHM]

When the topic of the beginner classes at WEF has come up before on the BB, the thing that a lot of people don’t seem to realize is that many of the kids participating in those classes already have a connection to the horse show.

Their parents are there showing in another division, or their siblings are there showing in another division. So in that situation, if you have the financial resources, it probably makes more sense to have everybody in the family participating at the same horse show, instead of finding different horse shows for them to do.

Are there kids doing the walk/trot at WEF who have no previous connection to the show? Probably. But often there is another family member involved there.

[Libby2563]

@vxf111

Not ranking riders against each other. There is no where on the dressage ballot for adding extra points on to make sure rider A beats rider b. Yes there are elements in which the rider is scored as part of the overall score but there’s no place on the ballot to add some extra points because you had both rider a and b identical on movement scores all throughout but you want to make sure rider a beats rider b. Can you find any source directing judges to score that way?

It’s not even practical where the score sheets may be handed in hours

apart for riders at the same level and there’s no way to go back and change earlier marks. A lot of time dressage divisions are essentially open cards a
I’d really like to see any source directing dressage judges to see a rider, decide they want that rider to “win” the division, and add underserved points for movements into the ballot to ensure that happens. Please show me the source and I will happily admit to being wrong but the ballot is expressly designed to score each movement individually against the ideal… not to create a ranking of riders as compared to each other that day.

You’re correct that the movements are scored individually, but it’s also true that judges are taught that scoring so that each test is ranked properly is important. My source: I’ve been through part 1 of the judge’s training program and I have scribed a lot. Some judges make notes on their order of go about their scores for each rider (not every movement obviously, but sort of an overall impression score like 7.5 if they think the test was mostly 7s and 8s). Others hold it in their heads. They have to be aware of the first ride in a class being either really good or really bad, so they don’t anchor too low or high. Sometimes they misjudge and all the scores in that class end up lower or higher than they would have liked. None of this is nefarious or about “undeserved points” (well, I hope not), but it’s definitely part of the judging process.

Also, in a recognized show it would be unusual for riders in a class to be riding hours and hours apart. If someone has two horses in a class they might go first and last, but few classes have more than 5-20 rides. If there are very few rides and the organizer needs to spread things out more due to multiple horses they can insert another small class, but generally it’s a lot more compact than you’re describing.

[SillyHorse]

Thank you, thank you for explaining it better than I did. Maybe @vxf111 will believe you. She sure doesn’t believe me.

[Sticky_Situation]

While I don’t really know what the amateur rules are in other sports, I’d argue that the idea of wealthy amateurs who are better than a lot of pros is probably not exclusive to equestrian sports. After all, the Olympics used to require all competitors in most (all?) sports to be amateurs, but that didn’t mean we had a bunch of mediocre average Joes winning Olympic gold.

But I’m not sure I follow the logical reasoning behind saying that since a small percent of amateurs are very good riders with very expensive horses who can win against the best, we should change the rules to allow riding instructors to compete in the amateur division. In equestrian sports, amateur has never meant beginner or unskilled, but it has always meant someone who does not receive money for riding and teaching lessons.

[Horsehusband]

It’s one of the few sports where the distinction of Amateur or Pro doesn’t really matter and has little effect on who wins a class.

All I’m saying is that it is impossible to police unless the USEF wants to spend huge dollars on looking into people’s tax records and verifying primary sources of income.

Me personally I’d rather see that money on bettering the sport and get rid of the bureaucracy of policing something that really doesn’t matter.

[trubandloki]

@SillyHorse

Thank you, thank you for explaining it better than I did. Maybe @vxf111 will believe you. She sure doesn’t believe me.

I think (assume) she believes both of you. To me it reads more that you are missing her point.

[SillyHorse]

I am not missing her point. She has been insisting that ranking doesn’t exist in dressage judging.

@vxf111

Not ranking riders against each other. There is no where on the dressage ballot for adding extra points on to make sure rider A beats rider b. Yes there are elements in which the rider is scored as part of the overall score but there’s no place on the ballot to add some extra points because you had both rider a and b identical on movement scores all throughout but you want to make sure rider a beats rider b. Can you find any source directing judges to score that way?

She is incorrect. @Libby2563 explained it very well.

Also, I’ve never heard the term dressage “ballot.” It seems that Google has never encountered it, either.

[Alterrain]

@Mouse_amp_Bay

Ah, another difference between the canadian and US amateur rules.

The Canadian Rules say (page 14):

5. Any person who has ridden on a Jumping 5* Nations Cup or a Jumping Major Championship Team is not eligible to compete in the amateur division for a period of two years from the date of the last competition at which the athlete rode on that Team.

A tiny slight nudge in the more equitable direction, I would say …

Does anyone remember when Reed jumped at THE OLYMPICS and then wanted to jump prix de states at Harrisburg 2 months later?

[skydy]

I remember that she didn’t do very well and was the drop score in the Olympics, but it was a long time ago…

[fivestrideline]

@Alterrain

Does anyone remember when Reed jumped at THE OLYMPICS and then wanted to jump prix de states at Harrisburg 2 months later?

To be fair, the Olympics USED to be amateurs only…

[EmilyM]

with respect to going to a more skill based system, how does that work exactly? Here are my concerns

I have a 3’3 A/o hunter. He cannot do 3’6 comfortably. he’s experienced, but i wouldn’t test his scope that much. I’ve won classes on him plenty (not always). When would I have to move up because our skill has advanced? I can’t afford a competitive 3’6 horse, and would this horse be rendered useless for me? I enjoy jumping 3’3" why do I have to move up? Or are you talking about just grouping people at each level against each other?

I also have a 3’ horse that used to do the 3’6 but had a series of injuries, and I’m just grateful to jump 3’ on him and have fun. What happens if we regain our consistency? he has to move up? what if that’s physically bad for him?

I don’t like to sell my horses, and I enjoy doing various heights for fun. For me it’s not always about moving up.

On the other hand, I can’t jump my jumper in 1.15m or higher in Zone 2 when I show a 3’ hunter. i guess they think if the rider is capable of jumping 1.15m or higher, they are too skilled for the 3’ hunters. Isn’t that a bit of a skill based rule to keep things fair? I stay at the 1.10m so I can show my hunter and jumper at the same show.

[Trekkie]

You would never have to move up. Three separate divisions at each height. So you could move up from the restricted at your height to the open at the same height and then to the elite. Only move up in height if you and your horse wanted to.

[luvmyhackney]

I always thought it was fair to split classes based on how many times you have won

Won less than 6x - this group
Won less than 12x - this group
Won more than 12x - open group.

Numbers are just examples and could be split on skill level better that way.

[2bayboys]

@luvmyhackney

I always thought it was fair to split classes based on how many times you have won

Won less than 6x - this group
Won less than 12x - this group
Won more than 12x - open group.

Numbers are just examples and could be split on skill level better that way.

Horse?
Rider?
Horse and rider team?

A re-rider ammy who buys a nice schoolmaster shouldn’t have to move up because the horse has won x times at x height.

And what about the rider and/or horse stepping down? An older rider who had wins at 3’6” should be allowed to move down into a division that’s comfortable for them when age dictates that’s necessary. Same for the horse.

[luvmyhackney]

When we did super basic schooling shows it was based on rider wins.
Ex 1: Suzi buys a really nice school master but she has only shown once, Suzi is going to win and max out the low level fairly quickly with a nice horse.
Ex 2: Suzi’s horse needs to step down but she has collected 14 wins in the higher classes, she just enters the won more than 12x times at the lower level.

Its very far from perfect but keeps people just entering the division from competing with people that have tons of experience and multiple horses that get bumped up in division quickly.

[MHM]

@fivestrideline

@Alterrain

Does anyone remember when Reed jumped at THE OLYMPICS and then wanted to jump prix de states at Harrisburg 2 months later?

To be fair, the Olympics USED to be amateurs only…

I believe that was long before she was born.

[Peggy]

I remember being mildly horrified almost 50 years ago when a friend told me that her brother competed against Olympians in his high-school swim meets and thinking that didn’t generally happen in equestrian sports.

[fivestrideline]

If you event in the SE US, you school around and compete against Olympians all the time. I’m not saying it’s good or bad, just that it does happen in other disciplines. It is less common in H/J unless you’re jumping bigger tracks.

[Renn_aissance]

Hey, I competed against Todd Minikus in a 2’6” schooling class once. I was 13 or so. My horse was very excited to be there and bronc’d around and Todd told me “good job” for not dying.

I also ran the ingate for a local jumper show in VA where Kim Severson brought Tipperary Liadhnan for a jump school. My friend won the class and came out saying “now I can die.” (Kim then signed all manner of things for us and was so gracious!)

Look at those Olympians taking ribbons from children.

[fivestrideline]

Oh that’s amazing!

Nothing like being told good job for not dying by people who know exactly what that feels like