In the Northern VA area I’ve had VEI find stuff that regular vets missed. I just hauled my young guy there and they have the xray machine on the boom, even their hand held xray machine was clearer then any previous regular xrays my vet took. We used the boom for stifle xrays. They’re very professional and specialize in lameness. A cheaper option would be to haul to Dr. Harrison. Again very good lameness vet but on the less expensive/not as fancy of a clinic side of things. I actually tried him first but he was out at a conference for a week. Both vets would take back/neck xrays without blinking an eye or questioning you. VEI actually gave me a more conservative less expensive approach but with a young horse I just wanted more done and they said great and did a great job.
Possibly because impaired horse may = clumsy and more prone to those kinds of injuries?
A sound horse’s missteps are immediately corrected properly.
A mildly impaired horse, maybe not so fast, or fast enough to not incur some damage that may add over time, as injuries to those areas can be.
I think there is a correlation between CA and structural injuries, but don’t think it’s definitively one specific type, athough suspensory injuries are at the top in my experience, but that’s usually when the horse has both CA + KS. One of the more recent cases of CA I had to deal with, the horse was older (20s) and only had one soft tissue injury when he was 7 and that was it - and he was campaigned quite often and we had him for nearly 15 years.
IME collateral ligament injuries are more the result of working hard on very bad shoeing angles.
Neck rads can help paint the picture; while there’s not always a definitive correlation between the rads and pain, it can help get that last jigsaw in place – and injection of the site can show the degree of pain the horse was in, by measuring the improvement (or lack thereof).
In my gelding’s case, the rads told enough that we could assume there was some compensatory soreness going on. Injection to the site, followed by a light schedule bringing back to work, and 100% of the previously noted struggles (difficulty with footing, tension in neck, resistance / tightness in one direction) disappeared. In his case, the difference in before and after were drastic enough we knew the neck was unequivocally the root of his body soreness.
Dr Martinelli said the correlation between Star’s CA and the collateral ligament damage was that he would have transient loss of proprioception that made him likely to put one food down harder. Over time this added up. He was not graded as neuro.
His replacement, Skipper, had more severe CA and a medley of lameness issues, at least some of which I feel were attributable to the CA. Based on other horses from the same breeder with CA, several off whom were euthanized for neuro issues, I also strongly feel that there was a genetic component to the whole mess. Breeder is no longer producing horses.
Beowulf “IME collateral ligament injuries are more the result of working hard on very bad shoeing angles.” Definitely not the case with my horse. Most of the time we schooled 2’6" on excellent footing and didn’t overjump or do repetitive exercises.
I think having all the “it turned out to be the neck” stories in one place would be very helpful. It was the various threads here that helped me put all the pieces of the puzzle together (especially with Peggy’s experiences). I don’t think I could have prevented my awful outcome, but perhaps I wouldn’t have done the last set of coffin joint injections and maybe we would’ve done an extensive workup sooner.
OP, did you have a scintograph (I seem to recall your horse did?) im guessing this is why the vets havent suggested x-raying this area.
From what ive read of your other thread, I think you have done everything right. You have had different specialists involved (to cover a spectrum of experiences) and the scintograph should really have highlighted if the neck or back had anything needing looked at (I know they arent the be-all and end-all)
Nope, no scintigraphy. It was never even suggested, probably because the LF lameness has blocked very consistently to the foot. He’s not insured so it made more sense to spend my money on an MRI of the known problem area.
I don’t think that’s what caused mine either. He had front foot x-rays done right at the start of the lameness and none of the vets who have looked at them had an issue with his hoof balance (he was barefoot). Since he was only 4 he had never really worked hard anyway, but in the 2 weeks before he went lame I only rode him a handful of times because I was practicing a pas de deux for an exhibition with my lease horse and it was very time-consuming. He came in with a cold, hard, nonreactive splint on the outside of his RF one day but was sound. Two days later he was lame. I suspect he must have been playing around in turnout.
I kind of wish I could blame it on bad footing or shoeing because there would be something to do differently next time…
Were your horse’s shoeing angles fantastic? Why’d he need the coffin joint injections (was this prior to the injury)?
I see collateral ligament injuries most commonly show up on horses with blatant NPA up front and/or behind (usually with prolific bullnosing and underrun heels), and it’s much more common in disciplines with speed and/or jumping than disciplines without.
I’m not @Write&Ride but Star’s angles were said to be good by both my vet and Mark Martnelli. Were there moments of non-ideal footing and hard work? Yes. But, IMHO it’s usually a combo of factors—minus the neck, it might not have happened. With Skipper, who did not have collateral ligament issues to add to his medley of other issues, I wonder if he might have been salvageable were it not for the combo of the neck and pedal osteitis in one foot. I think he just couldn’t fight both at the same time. Or maybe he just would have made it longer than just past his seventh birthday.
He needed the injections because he was lame but we didn’t realize it stemmed from the neck. His hooves were not the issue (per vet), speed and jumping was not the issue (he jumped crossrails on a few occasions in the past year). He was a hunter, never went fast or jumped high or often prior to that. It. Was. The. Neck.
I’m not sure why I’m bothering to answer your grilling-type questions. You’ll just think of more based on my answers. I had to put my horse to sleep just 5 weeks ago, trust that I explored all the reasons leading up to that.
This was pretty much where I ended up. The choices were:
- Pay for diagno$tic procedure$ then proceed with treatment plan$ (dx was about 70% of ultimate trx, but we were talking full body scintography since it was unclear if it was neck, back, both)
- Cut to the chase and spend available bucks on treatment plan
I opted for Door #2. He was pretty awesome immediately after, however when trx effects wore off he was worse than before, so he took the early retirement plan. That was about 2 years ago and he’s a bit more neurological, but not really (for his job, which involves a career in pasture management). Most significantly, I noticed that he does not choose to crib on things as tall as he used to, he prefers them below nose height, which tells me he has some pretty significant discomfort when he raises his neck.
If I ever do have that kind of disposable income hanging around I would like to know what the issues are, but so far it ranks far below a lot of other things I want to spend my money on!
I might wonder if a horse with mild neurological tendencies might be more subject to not reading the terrain (angled/uneven) and this might contribute to this kind of injury in an otherwise correct foot… especially if you live someplace where it isn’t exactly flat
That’s a valid point.
What is with the attitude? I only asked to understand more of the story and was curious what pathology showed up on x-ray to do the coffin joint injections. If it was before the injury or after made a big difference in the picture, in my eyes.
I was just sharing my experience about the origin of most collateral ligament injuries I’ve dealt with (hoof / fetlock) , and responding to you, sharing your experience.
That is not me looking into your case and proclaiming that is the reason for your horse’s injury, if that is not clear. You didn’t even specify what kind of collateral ligament injury in the comment I replied to.
Maybe I need to make it abundantly clear that I am referring to my own experience only and not talking about you or your horse.
Regarding the horses I’ve seen in the flesh with collateral ligament injuries in the hoof + collateral ligament injuries in the front fetlock: It almost always had a balance origin. The problem is the day to day living on the bad angles is often just as damaging and stressful to the limbs as working on them. Most vets do not understand shoeing or what a good, properly balanced hoof looks like. In summary, I am not certain there is an established link to collateral ligament injuries and c-spine issues beyond what another poster suggested, which is that perhaps the lack of proprioceptive function and constantly fumbling is what causes gradual wear-down of tissue and it just so happens that the collateral ligament is overtaxed.
Now if you asked me if bad shoeing/trimming angles made pain from existing c-spine athritis worse, I could tell you with certainty I am positive it does.
Sorry to interject my experiences/questions in this thread, but has anyone had a front lameness block pretty good to the foot (I thought 70% but vet said more like 80-90%) and have the pathology actually be in the neck? Xrays of the foot looked good and we stopped there (he later did get a dose of Osphos).
We’re going to work up the LF again this week and I’m suspicious of the neck. I’m not sure what I’ll do if it blocks to the foot again - just assume soft tissue and give him a few months off (stall rest is not an option for this horse) or push for neck xrays to double check?
He’ll be an interesting case if he does have something in the neck - we had a collateral ligament injury of the opposite front fetlock a few years ago. Xrays of the foot before and after looked ok (angles a tiny bit low). Vet hypothesized he “fell off his foot” in the pasture in rutted, frozen footing. Just like I regularly fall off my Dansko clogs and stretch my ankle. I assume neck issues could affect proprioception.
I’m sorry if I’m touchy about this, beowulf, it’s hard to tell someone’s tone from a question. I apologize if you didn’t mean it the way I took it. I’ve had some painful comments directed my way when my horse died (Why didn’t you do injections? Couldn’t you have retired him to pasture? I’ve heard vitamin E and turmeric can make a huge difference, wish you’d talked to me before you did that). That’s the place I’m coming from, so still a little raw about the questions. Again, I apologize, I shouldn’t have been snappy.
[QUOTE=Libby2563;n10239004]
Nope, no scintigraphy. It was never even suggested, probably because the LF lameness has blocked very consistently to the foot. He’s not insured so it made more sense to spend my money on an MRI of the known problem area.
QUOTE]
Oh wow then it is a surprise they havent looked further from the obvious.
Ugghh!! I hate to hear that things still aren’t clear with your horse! Ugghh!
Here’s another anecdotal story to add to your group: The barn I moved to after Heidi’s had lots of well-bred WBs. One imported mare from a very sound R line showed a lot of promise as a 3 and 4 year old. As a late 4-5 year old, she developed tightness in her neck and weird lamenesses that $$$ couldn’t diagnose. I rode her and she was willing to go forward and could extend all day, but she was not amazingly willing to collect, flex or bend really well as a 5 year old. Trainers though she was fighting. You know the caliber of trainers and vet care at this facility - things were so vague. Finally, she was diagnosed with subltle neck/withers issues that likely caused the neck stiffness and over-compensation/weird lameness issues. As I recall, they thought it likely occurred when she was a foal doing something stupid, but became obvious when she was maturing/being ridden. She was retired at 6 to broodmare. She has been pasture sound into broodmare retirement (none of her babies had the same issue, it likely was a foal injury).
The more I spend my time with horses, the more I know of issues that seem impossible to really diagnose. I hate for you to spend more money, but perhaps the neck/back imaging is something valid you can cross off your list…or might explain things and present a way forward. You need to invoke the luck of the Irish!
That’s awful :no: Sorry for your loss.
Backing up to this since you didn’t get any replies. I actually asked the same question on someone else’s thread a few weeks ago, when I was first thinking about all this. My post is #23 and there are a few responses below, mixed in with more direct replies to the OP of that thread and some other interesting info on CA: https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/forum/discussion-forums/horse-care/10220768-nerve-paralysis-neurological-symptoms/page2
Thanks @Libby2563
I asked my vet if their portable xray was strong enough to get decent neck xrays and it sounds like they’ve not had any issues. So I’m planning to do them on the farm if needed. If
you are still looking where to get the neck done, have you checked with your mobile vet?
I did not ask about back xrays but I think they can get the withers with the portable machine. Further back I think they need the in-clinic machine for the stability required.
