Purina vs triple crown Vs nutrena

[Spyder]

I have had underweight horses that needed more weight and found that senior feed w/ all the beet pulp, additional fat, etc…, didn’t really do much. Nor did rice bran or soaked beet pulp, or I even tried shredded coconut which actually did a little more than the rice bran or beet pulp.

When I began feeding alfalfa pellets as half of the grain weight ration (if you feed 4# of grain per feeding, feed 2# alfalfa pellets and 2# of the grain) the guys began to pick up weight. That and excellent quality hay, all the time, so they don’t turn it into bedding.

The alfalfa pellets really work well.

[StormyDay]

@lenapesadie

I was under the impression that it was the sugar/starch/carbs in the grain that was the ulcer risk.

I think we have the same goal, use as little grain as possible, but have differing understandings as to what that means in a practical application.

Yes, it’s the carbs essentially that are the problem. It’s been years since I took the course talking about sugars and the digestive system, but IIRC it has to do with the sugar triggering the body to release more acid than required. It also may have something to do with the amount of heavy, easily digestible matter entering the stomach. Grain is way easier to digest and needs less stomach acid to break down, but the horses body is still going to release the same amount of acid for that volume as if it was tougher hay.

My point is that if you can feed 6 pounds of 1400 calories grain, or 4.5 pounds of 1800 calorie grain, it’s almost always a better** choice to choose the higher calorie grain.

** there are of course reasons why this wouldn’t be true, like horses in need of a low starch diet, or maybe if your horse was allergic to a certain ingredient in the higher calorie grain. But my advice to the average horse owner is feed whatever makes it so you can feed the least amount of grain possible.

[enjoytheride]

I’ve been feeding Purina Impact Performance. I’ve really been happy with it. It’s newer in the Purina lineup and I used to have to order it weekly from my feed store but then it started catching on and now they stock it everyday. I switched everyone to it off of Strategy and Tribute EZ and Ultra. Was having issues with reactive horses or skinny horses on the other two. My skinny horses put on weight and my hot horse calmed down.

My 29yo I’m currently feeding TC senior to because it’s the highest fat and calories I can find with the smallest recommended feeding since he has choked in the past. Nutrena safe choice senior was 8lbs minimum and TC senior was 6lbs.

[lenapesadie]

Do you have a source for the acid production being related to lbs fed? What I’m finding online says that horses produce acid at a constant regular rate. And that cereal grains increase ulcer risk due to excessive fermentation in the stomach. Which lines up with what I recalled off the top of my head.

So…

I would counter that the average horse owner should feed concentrates (if needed) with the goal of keeping overall sugar and cereal grains to a minimum. If that means feeding more lbs of fiber based Senior feed, I think that’s preferable based on my understanding of nutrition.

I’d love to be educated / proven wrong

*same disclaimer re individuals may have different needs etc.

[StormyDay]

Hmm, ok, I’ll have to look into it. The source material I’m working off of was classroom based so I’ll have to see if anything is online.

[Ziggylyla]

I had thought about to get less grain like everyone has suggested either do a ration balancer and alfalfa cubes maybe 5-6 lbs or so ultium competition but only like 3 lbs and alfalfa cubes with a complimentary ration balancer since it would be under feeding for vitamins and minerals. He looked great on just grass but then we pulled him off because there was no more and he had already began to lose weight when the grass started to die. This is why I’m not a fan of feeding this much grain but it is working and my thought was since it has beet pulp etc it would be more like forage then a grain

[J-Lu]

My current horse was REALLY hard to keep weight on at your horse’s age, mainly due to nerves. I worked closely with my vets (husband and wife team) and we started with beet pulp, 1+ c oil and Pro Force Fiber (similar to Fuel but beet pulp based) fed to the label or slightly more. I tried Cool Calories, which is a coconut based supplement but it didn’t help much. I also supplemented his hay with alfalfa compressed bales. 1) more calories and 2) cations because he had very minor ulcers (treated for 6 weeks) and was just a hot mess. I moved and we eventually cut out the beet pulp and oil (there were oil marks all over his stall where he pressed his nose) and transitioned to Pro Force Fuel. I was very happy with how it helped him keep his weight. Also, he was in regular work, and until last year, I supplemented his winter life with alfalfa hay.

I also talked with nutritionists at both Purina and Cargill (Nutrena) about my specific horse and probably could have fed him Purina Ultium, since it was so similar to the ProForce lines in fat content and nutrition. I had him on supplemental alfalfa bales in the winter to maintain weight because he used to lose a lot despite being blanketed. At the new place, he was out 24/7 on his own anally-maintained pasture supplemented with local hay in the winter. I had Equi-Analytica analyze his pasture so I could balance his diet.

My horse needed a lot of grain and when I first moved, the old barn owner wanted to cut the grain back because he was so hot. My vet actually argued with her that “This horse needs calories. This horse needs grain” which uncharacteristically closed the mouth of the former BO.

We’re still there. At 13 years old (almost), he’s become a freakishly easy keeper. He only gets balancer - no grain - for the last maybe 3 years? I really work to keep his body score no higher than 6 because he can put on lbs!. He’s still sometimes hot, but life experience has helped him deal with the things he think will kill or maim him and trust me.

He’s been in constant work and I’ll add that correct work builds muscle, not feed.

Good luck with your guy!

ETA: PS, if you’re in prairie states you likely have access to good alfalfa bales from CO-NM. When I lived in NM, they were cheaper than good grass hay. Your local feed store likely has compressed bales. Check it out!

Also, try compressed bales rather then cubes or pellets. The latter contain mostly stem while you can see what you get (amount leaf) in a bale.

[JB]

@StormyDay

it’s all the other ‘stuff’ that can cause issues (ulcers). The difference between 4.5 and 6 pounds doesn’t seem like much, but it can make a huge difference if you have a horse that’s ulcer prone.

What “stuff”?

@StormyDay

But even feed companies will tell you to feed as little grain as possible to achieve the results you want. If you have a hard keeper, it is healthier for them to receive 4 pounds of grain a day vs 6 or 8. Pretty much any feed company or vet will agree with that statement.

Feeds have - are required to - a range of feeding amount. The minimal end of that is “required” for nutritional value relative to the average hay. The max amount is what is generally safe due to higher level of certain nutrients, assuming a horse is eating a good amount of an average hay. That range is something to work in from a calorie perspective. Those instructions are required based on the fortification, not because a company wants to sell less feed.

@StormyDay

So if you have easy keepers, it’s better to feed them one or two pounds of a ration balancer than 3-4 pounds of grain

Sure, from a calorie perspective.

@StormyDay

And if you have a hard keeper, it’s best to feed the highest calorie and fat feed you can find, so you can feed the least amount of it.

It’s not quite that black and white. If it were only about calories and fat, all the hardest keepers would do well on Ultium Competition. But they don’t - some do better on Triple Crown Senior. Some do better on Nutrena ProForce Fuel. The ingredients, the amounts of the different ones, soy hulls vs soymeal (and how much), all factor in to what products do well for a horse, despite what things on paper say “should” be

@lenapesadie

I was under the impression that it was the sugar/starch/carbs in the grain that was the ulcer risk

Generally yes - starches create volatile fatty acids which directly actively attach the stomach lining. So, high starch meals are a much bigger ulcer factor than low starch meals.

Bu horses eating only grass, or low starch feeds, still get ulcers, because starches aren’t all there is to it

@StormyDay

Yes, it’s the carbs essentially that are the problem. It’s been years since I took the course talking about sugars and the digestive system, but IIRC it has to do with the sugar triggering the body to release more acid than required. It also may have something to do with the amount of heavy, easily digestible matter entering the stomach. Grain is way easier to digest and needs less stomach acid to break down, but the horses body is still going to release the same amount of acid for that volume as if it was tougher hay.

It’s not simply carbs. It’s particular carbs. The acid is there. It’s always there. Food triggers acid production in people, but not horses.

Yes, if you’re feeding 10lb of a 1500 cal/lb feed, it’s a good idea to see if 8lb of a 1900 cal/lb feed works. Maybe it will, but maybe it won’t, and maybe what it takes is 6lb of a different 1500 cal/lb feed

[Ziggylyla]

I just got so more of this senior active so after this it will be 3 months on it and then I can do a good comparison and see if he needs the ultium competition at a lower rate and alfalfa cubes.

[J-Lu]

Check out alfalfa bales or compressed bales, not cubes or pellets.

Heck, my mare was on 100% alfalfa out west, then transitioned to pellets when we moved to PA (no alfalfa) and then suddenly refused to eat the pellets. She was a food driven mare. If you can, go for bales - normal or compressed. The nutrition is in the leaf.

[Ziggylyla]

I also have access to Chaffhaye which is like a chopped alfalfa but it’s fermented like haulage. Other horses go crazy for it. I used to feed it to mine but I couldn’t get a hold of it for a while. Might just do that. The only question would be ration balancer, senior active or ultium competition which I will look at when I’m done with this batch.

[J-Lu]

Ration balancer doesn’t have calories, which is why I feed it to my now prone-to-get-fat 13 year old. I would not feed it to your young guy, I’d feed something with more fat and calories. Ultium or ProForce. They are both nutritionally balanced while adding calories. I would steer away from senior food for a young horse.

If I were you, I’d look into a higher fat grain and feed to the label. Try adding oil or something like Cool Calories to increase fat in the mean time. The oil seemed to work but got so messy. We tried feeding 2 cups and it got everywhere! We had to scale back. One cup might work for your guy until you switch feeds! Soaked beet pulp helped my guy maintain weight when he was younger. Cool Calories helped other horses gain weight, just not my guy.

Seriously, he had a body score that was 5 - 5.5 due to nerves. I really had to manage his weight gain with my vets.

[JB]

@J-Lu

Ration balancer doesn’t have calories,

They are in the 1200-1300 cal/lb or so range. It’s not a whole lot, but it’s not zero either. It’s more than 1lb of alfalfa pellets or beet pulp.

@J-Lu

I would not feed it to your young guy, I’d feed something with more fat and calories. Ultium or ProForce. They are both nutritionally balanced while adding calories.

If a young horse needs all those calories (6lb x 1900cal/lb for Ultium is enormous) then those are fine.

Many youngsters would be fat.

@J-Lu

I would steer away from senior food for a young horse.

Why? Many are very similar to the brand’s growth feed. Triple Crown Sr is nearly identical to the old Growth formula. Many horses, no matter the age, do very well on a given senior feed, whether they are hanging out, or working.

[J-Lu]

Ration balancers don’t have fat. They are inappropriate for a horse that needs to gain weight.

The Nutrena foods, even Ultium, I mentioned are much more appropriate for a youngster who needs to gain calories/fat. Was this unclear? I relayed my particular horse’s experience. Was this unclear to you? My horse wasn’t fat with the feeding regimes in place. He needed more calories. What about this is unclear to you?

Senior food doesn’t have the same qualities of other foods. It’s simple, and senior feeds aren’t working for this particular horse. “Old Growth Formula?” What are you talking about? The feed doesn’t seem to be working well for this horse. No, senior feeds don’t help all horses, no matter the age or level of work. Feeds are more complex than that.

[Arlomine]

JB is referring to the fact that the old formula for TC growth is almost identical to the current TC senior. This is true, I confirmed it with both the company and a dietician.
I therefore fed my young warmblood TC senior, with a small amount of TC balancer to compensate for the fact that I wasn’t feeding the amount of senior needed to hit the nutritional mark.
I supplemented with two flakes of alfalfa in addition to free choice grass hay, and Vit e.

[JB]

@J-Lu

Ration balancers don’t have fat.

Of course they do.

@J-Lu

They are inappropriate for a horse that needs to gain weight.

I never suggested otherwise. That said, there’s also no reason you can’t use a ration balancer + hay pellets + fat supplement to gain weight. It’s just not usually cost-effective.

You made some blanket statements, which is all I was addressing.

@J-Lu

Senior food doesn’t have the same qualities of other foods.

Except I just told you that TC Sr is nearly identical to their old Growth formula. Therefore, your blanket statement isn’t correct. How is that unclear?

@J-Lu

It’s simple, and senior feeds aren’t working for this particular horse.

“He has gained some weight but is losing a little bit of muscle.”

Did anyone ask how easily ribs can be felt? The pictures don’t show an underweight horse, I see a nice lean youngster who is probably growing a bit right now. Would a little more weight hurt? No. Would I want 100lb on him? Also no.

THIS senior feed is allegedly not working - see my questions. That doesn’t mean NO Sr feed can work. That doesn’t mean she just needs to switch to a different Sr feed. I gave her some options, and included some reasons why a change might work better.

@J-Lu

No, senior feeds don’t help all horses, no matter the age or level of work.

Thankfully that isn’t what I said.
“Many horses, no matter the age, do very well on a given senior feed, whether they are hanging out, or working.”

Many != all.

[JB]

@StormyDay

I may start an internet argument here, but senior feeds aren’t a very useful feed for most horses IMO.

Based on what?

A whoooooole lot of TC Sr went overseas to feed a whole lot of Olympic horses last Summer.

There are a whole lot of senior horses who absolutely find many senior feeds very useful. A good many of them are also complete feeds (Purina Sr Active is not a complete feed) and are fed to the tune of 15-20lb a day to provide nutrition and fiber to horses who can’t have hay or grass. If a horse can and will eat enough soaked hay pellets and/or cubes, then obviously he doesn’t need 20lb of a complete feed

[lenapesadie]

I didn’t know they shipped TC Senior over for the Olympics! Pretty cool.

I wonder if they used the regular formula or the Gold

[J-Lu]

@JB

Carry on.

[J-Lu]

Thanks for this info!