Putting an 11 year old horse down.

[Reckoning]

Elizabeth, Heidi’s post seems to offer the best solution. Great post, Heidi, btw- thank you for your eloquent expression of the ideal solution.

Unfortunately, I don’t know of any situations where a give-away-to-good-home situation has worked for a horse who is restricted to under two feet. The problem being that a rider will progress past the point of the horse’s capability so quickly, and I know you would be worried about what would happen to him at that point. But then, I also freely admit to knowing next to nothing about dressage, which may be an option worth exploring. I wish you the best, Elizabeth. What a painful crossroads… All of my empathy and sympathy is with you.

[elizabeth]

Oh, you guys are wonderful for working through this with me. Let’s see:

Merry -
Yes, the vet thinks he can be made serviceably sound. My trainer’s hubby (jumphigh83’s husband) actually thinks we can get Buster back to where he was a few months ago - sound for W-T-C without Bute. Further:
(1) Buster has proven to us that he is good with beginners. With me, he might buck and a spook if he feels good in the cold weather. With beginners, he plods along, very aware of who he has on his back. Again, his prior owner used him as a lesson horse, including for W-T-C. No lunging needed, but he needed to get out each day - either ridden a bit or a bit of turn-out (not a field’s worth with other horses, b/c then he will run)- otherwise there was a risk that he will be rude (out of boredom since he is used to getting out of his stall each day for an hour or two).
Merry, if you think there is hope for finding a kid to have him out here or a W-T program that needs an extra horse, that changes my calculus. That puts me in a position where I can keep half an eye on him. I can give him to someone who wants him, but I can do it on the condition that they call me if he gets unuseable or I can check in every month to be sure he hasn’t taken a turn for the worse. Then it would be acceptable, in my mind, to put him through the stress of shipping him out here. He then has an option at living, and we can do it in a way that I can ensure he is not suffering at the hands of a misguided free-lease person. And offering to pay for shoeing or part of it is actually an option I had contemplated from the beginning. (My vet and I discussed it a few weeks ago, as a way to ensure that a person with a good home could AFFORD Buster.)
(2) My trainer thinks he is bombproof on trails, and every other trainer who has had him has thought that. I, however, have only ridden him on trails a few times. The first time per season, he looks for a reason to spook. After that, it is old hat.
(3) I don’t think his legs would hold up as a police horse if he was ridden on concrete. I don’t think he bombproof enough, either, though he’s not a flighty TB either. He, like most Appy’s, is darn loyal and sensible.
(4) Companion horse is a tough call. He is very friendly, and he has never NOT gotten along with any of his pasturemates. The problem, however, is that he gets them to play and run. I guess the question is whether he would stop that after a week or two with the same horse. . . . In Md., he did. He ran like an idiot in the gelding field, but he quieted down in a two-horse paddock. In NY, he ran like an idiot with three other horses, but he quieted down with just one other. . . .

Kellybird & AAJumper & AOJumper & Rockford & Vineyridge & everyone: Thank you for working through all those options for me. As I noted above, when I had Buster in Md. and he was on-his-head lame, he still ran like an idiot, every single day, and the barn owner finally had to take him out of the gelding field b/c he would get everyone running. And at jumphigh’s farm, I put him out with the 40 year old horse and two mares, and he raced the freakin’ 40 year old. That is how he came up lame two weeks ago. But, as I noted above, he settled down when he was with just one horse. Maybe it is worth a try, if I can find a retirement/turn-out facility in SoCal. It is better than the other option, to be sure.

AAJumper, can you e-mail me the name of the barn your friend brought her horse to for retirement? At least I can call them and discuss it. The worst that could happen is that he could come out here, it wouldn’t work, and then I would put him down. Which is where I would be anyway.

Vineyridge, UC Davis has a donation program? Maybe I should check in with them. . . .

That’s what was making me think Cornell was my only resort. I could not see a way to bring Buster out here because I had no back-up plan. I love where AAJumper keeps her horse, but it is a show facility. And if we cannot get Buster sound enough to be put into a program, he really will not fit in there. A kid program, though, or a W-T-C program is a good back-up option. Or even knowing that there is a retirement facility that I can try retiring him at is good to know. That means I have options. That means it might be reasonable to ship him out here to CA, keep him at the place where AAJumper keeps her horse for a few months to see how sound we can get him, then figure out what to do. . . .

Guys, will you please let me know specifically that you know of turn-out or retirement places or of places that would want a W-T-C horse so that I can be sure (well, as sure as anyone can be - I know circumstances always change) that I really do have options?

Thank you, all of you. I now have things to think about.

[This message was edited by elizabeth on Mar. 04, 2001 at 01:39 AM.]

[AAJumper]

You have to do what you feel in your heart is the best thing for you and the animal. Just remember that horses aren’t people…they live day to day and don’t have glorious ambitions and dreams of someday achieving this or that. And if each day is miserable for them (or even not much of a “life”), then you have to remember that their reality is one day at a time. If you feel that ultimately his quality of life will suffer, then you have to do what you think you need to do. It would be great if we could all retire each and every horse we’ve owned, but it’s just not possible for many people for financial reasons.

It’s like this cat I have…he is so cool. But he got a fibrous sarcoma last August as the result of vaccinations. So I decided to have the vet remove the tumor, in hopes that he could live a while longer, but I opted to not have him go through the radiation treatment. I just can’t pay that kind of money and put him through the torture of having the treatments (he HATES vets). And someday, the cancer will come back and I’ll have to put him to sleep. But all he’ll know is that he is uncomfortable (if the tumor comes back) and that he is no longer happy. It’s not like he can think “I am going to go through all these treatments so that I can have an extended life of mouse-hunting.”

So even though it is a horrible decision to have to make, just know that you are doing what you think is best for his quality of life (whatever your decision may be). And if his quality of life will not be good, then you have to do what you have to do. And it is not a decision that anyone can stand in judgement of…you know your horse and the situation, and no one else can really second guess your decision, IMO.

[L_Scott]

I just wanted to add, through edit, that if you decided to go the donation route, this was my experience. If he is sound or capable of being comfortable, perhaps retaining control through a disabled program or lesson program would be better for him.

I had an old A circuit show pony that was in his early thirties. He was out babysitting the youngsters(his favourite job) and came in one day with what turned out to be edema around his girth area. The vet took a look and kept an eye on it. He didn’t seem upset or uncomfortable, so we left things as they were and the vet checked him periodically. He slowly started to loose weight and it became evident that he was starting to fail.

Our vet suggested we donate him to the University of Guelph Equine program. He said they rarely get to study the (failing) heart of a living horse. With assurances that I could visit all day every day if I wanted, I consented. It was understood that as long as he was eating, comfortable and in no pain, we would continue. He was there for seven days. In that time he was spoiled and loved by all and especially by the daughter of the vet handling him. He was noticeably very content and happy. On the seventh day he failed and was euthanized immediatly. They asked my permission to do so before I could get there so that he would not suffer.

It was a good ending and fine experience for a fabulous pony.

I have no regrets.

On another note, I think I have recounted my other experience with UofG which I thought they handled beautifully as well. My sisters hunter corked himself playing in the paddock one day. Nothing unusual about it. It was cleaned and attended to.

Ten days after corking himself, he was humanely destroyed at Guelph, suffering from Necrotizing Faceitis(flesh eating disease). His immune system shut down and the outlook for survival and being able to walk was estimated to be miraculous if he survived another 24 hours. He would never trot or canter again, assuming he could walk. He would have had to have had skin graphs. In short, he would not have been able to live the life of a horse, even a lame one, and would essentially have been three legged. All this is before financial considerations.

UofG was again, absolutely fantastic. The care was second to none. We were called constantly with updates and told up front what needed to be done and why, in language we could understand. He was handled constantly by the same people which calmed him down considerably.

I have the utmost respect for this facility.

[This message was edited by LCR Scott on Mar. 05, 2001 at 01:33 PM.]

[Lori]

Theraputic riding centers: I have ridden with these. A high maintenance horse is not what most are looking for, since they survive off of donations. Double check with the center you are looking at.

Elizabeth, if you are serious about having to give your horse up, please email me.
We are still looking for a trail horse for my husband to ride on. We would be happy with a free lease should the situation work out. I can let you know more details if you have any interest. Lori

[elizabeth]

Thanks everyone!
As to riding him, I will begin doing so hopefully in a week, depending on how quickly he gets “un-sore” from the trip and from running around in the new, exciting turn-outs at the new, exciting barn!

[elizabeth]

Yes, Rockford and Slugger.

As to the therapeutic riding program, that is actually what my trainer suggested. Before I got Buster, his old trainer occasionally used him for W-T-C lessons b/c he suffers the fools. If he knows the rider cannot ride, he is very quiet. I guess I just did not think such a program would want a horse that has expensive feet. . . .

As to the “job” question, he can be a low level dressage horse. When I was in Md. with him, a third-fourth level dressage kid would take her weekly lesson on him b/c her horse was lame. Buster doesn’t know a lot, but he knows the basics. Could he be a high level horse? No. Could he be a low-level horse. Sure.

He could also be some kid’s cross-rail horse, but the fear there is that some kid will try to then make him her novice horse. Cross-rails he could do - 2’6" lessons every week he could not do.

Again, though, if you were me, would you worry about the notion of “what if he goes lame”? What will his new owners do then? My one friend tells the horror story of giving her old 20 y.o. navicular horse away as a trail horse and later finding out that he was Buted up and shown. I could not - NOT - sleep at night worrying that someone was doing that to Buster. That’s what I mean when I say he does not deserve that. I’d rather put him down.

Do you really think it is possible to find a good home for him where the owners will commit to shoeing him well, and commit to donating him (as opposed to sending him to a sale) when he has ceased to stay sound consistently?

Slugger, I know you know the horse world - have you seen these sorts of situations work out?

[elizabeth]

Heidi, there are problems with your otherwise correct suggestion (you are talking, by the way, to a woman who vowed never, ever to put this animal down. I told my mother that I would rather be paying $10,000 a year to keep him than put him down and forever regret it. That was before I realize what a catch-22 I am in.):
(1) He runs like an idiot when he is turned- out. An idiot. And he makes himself dead lame. This is the problem. To retire him to a pasture would mean he would run all day - he has no sense of understanding where the pain is coming from. He literally ran himself so sore two weeks ago that he could not lift his front leg to let us pull off his bell boot. So, while my trainers and I have discussed that option, we cannot fathom he would be happy as a retired horse.
(2) Which brings us to donating him to a kid or something. . . . Merry’s horror stories are almost a sure thing with this guy. His personality is such that the urge to Bute him up and jump him 3’ would be too tempting for most mortals. And he suffers the fools. God bless him, he is a packer. How can I prevent that when I am clear across the country? I would love to give him away as a trail horse - he will be limbered up, but he won’t be in a position where he can run uncontrolled, but how do you find that kind of situation??
(3) I could ship him out here and turn him out, but I have no idea where to put him. I mean, I have found NO turn-out facility that would give him what he needs - fully supervised turn-out so that someone can stop him when he is running himself into the ground. I’ve asked - Merry, coreene, AAJumper - you all remember, right?

So here I stand. . . .
What the h*ll do I do?

(I’m not a partner, by the way - I was the youngest associate they have ever had. Not that that is relevant, but I did not want you to think I was misleading you.)

[Merry]

If you are willing to pay to have him shipped out here and then board him and see how sound you can get him, that’s an admirable gesture. If he stays serviceably sound, yes, I can at least give you 3 or 4 riding schools/programs that I can vouch for that MIGHT need a low-level school horse on a feed lease deal.

[mrs]

I put my 11 year old quarter horse down just a couple of months ago. It was one of the hardest decisions of my life. I, too, investigated the vet school option but did decide against it because they could not take him for a month.

He was in pain most of the time and was becoming dangerous. He was always a biter while being fed-- I mean, take a hunk out of you, not a nipper. There is a threshold of pain when anyone rebels and he had reached that. He began to try to bite you when you went to get him out for his therapy. He was in pain, he was unhappy and, while I had offers to have him be a pasture horse he was always the low man, and I felt he was now dangerous. It made logical sense to put him down to end his misery and know for sure that he was not going to end up at the killers or that he would hurt anyone. That being said, it still was not easy. But, if there is a “rainbow bridge” I know he will be there waiting for me.

You need to try to do what is best for your horse, not what will make it easier on you. It would have been easier for me to give him away but I felt that was not the right thing to do. You are also going to come up against individuals who will not understand your decision if you opt to put him down. There are some people who will keep animals alive no matter what. That was the second hardest part to deal with, they make you feel like a murderer. I have since come to the conclusion that they are really cowards and unable to make the hard decisions - they let it “happen” naturally or they drag it out so long while the animal suffers from their lack of compassion for them.

Every case is individual. I wish you well and hope that you can come to the decision that is right for both of you what ever it is.

[jl1]

Elizabeth-when I first read (in another post of yours), that you were considering putting an 11 year old horse down, I thought" Jeez, what a spoiled unfeeling jerk." You didn’t indicate that Buster had navicular and I jumped to the conclusion that you were simply callous and uncaring. I mention this as a reminder to all how easy it is to misinterpret comments in the cyber world.

That said, my philosophy has always been that it is the quality not quantity of the life that counts.

[Pookah]

I’m so glad that this situation worked out for the best! As a certified therapeutic riding instructor, and NARHA Region Chair, I feel like I have to comment on the donating horses issues. It seems that every time something comes up about a lame horse, lots of suggestions appear to donate to a therapeutic riding program. Believe me, we’re very grateful to be thought of, but in most cases, horses with serious lameness problems are not useful in a therapeutic riding program. Imagine teaching up-downers on a lame horse. Okay, now imagine that your up-downer has serious balance issues-he/she can’t tell if they’re leaning 45 degrees to one side. Or they have very low muscle tone, and it’s very hard for them to stand up in their stirrups even in an even rhythm. It’s very hard to deal with a lame horse in a therapy situation. Yes, there are programs that have a use for a “walk-only” horse, but they are few and far between. More typical is the program with 1-3 walk-only students. Not nearly enough to justify a separate horse for them. Many programs are supporting at least 3-4 horses, often paying board along with other horse expenses. All on donations. Believe me, it’s not easy to come up with the money for lots of “extra care,” such as therapeutic shoeing, medications, or excessive vet work. I don’t want to make it sound like our horses are not well cared for; in most programs they are, and it can be a fantastic retirement home for a horse. But the program is really there to serve the riders, not the horses, and the horses really need to have some level of soundness to be an asset to the program. I don’t want to discourage people from calling riding centers about donating their horse, but please try to understand where we’re coming from, too.

[cbv]

Such a pick me up on a dreary holiday weekend…I think I must go out and hug a horse in a minute.

This happy ending also shows the importance of all the people that make the world of horses complete. The vast majority of horsepeople I know are kind and helpful to human and beast alike…and are as important a part of the experience of horse ownership as the horses themselves.

[elizabeth]

I am trying to figure out whether to donate my horse, Buster, to Cornell University, where they will use him for academic purposes for a few months, then put him down.

He is 11, and he has been lame on and off for the two years I have had him. He has navicular pain in his front feet (clean X-rays) which require $150 aluminum shoes and pads every four weeks. He has ringbone behind, which requires injections once every 8 months.

For about 9 months last year, he was sound, doing flat work and jumping once a week(now he is lame), but he is a costly horse to maintain throughout the process. However, now that I am on the west coast and he is on the east coast, it is becoming an expense that I cannot even reap the benefits of, since I never see him.

I am afraid if I give him away to a kid for a backyard horse, they will not be able to shoe him every four weeks. I am afraid if I give him away as a companion horse, he will run like a maniac, make himself lame, and his new owners will send him to the sales.

When he is turned out, he runs so hard on his navicular feet that he cannot walk for days. On four grams of Bute, he is STILL lame from running like an idiot a full two weeks ago.

I am just thinking it is better to give him to Cornell, let them use him for several months (to teach the vet students how to deal with navicular horse), and just resign myself to the fact that they will then put him down.

Can anyone give me any advice or share how they made such a decision? It makes me sad, but I also just cannot dignify putting Buster in a place where he might someday suffer (e.g. in someone’s backyard).

Will I regret this?

Thanks in advance for the advice.

[elizabeth]

Twister: Thank you. Just to clarify, there are no financial reasons to donate. Instead, I would do it for two reasons:
(1) It would prolong Buster’s life for a few months at no cost to him. Meaning, all Cornell Vet School would use him for, as I understand it, is training of vets as to how to shoe/diagnose a navicular horse. The care there is good, and they would not be using him for testing or anything painful.
(2) The vet from Virginia Tech (Dr. Vanessa Cook) who figured out why Buster was lame a year and a half ago is now at Cornell. If she can use Buster as a model for purposes of new vets learning how to diagnose an undiagnosable lameness, all the better. Prior to Dr. Cook diagnosing Buster a year and a half ago (after five hours of exams, six nerve blocks, and 26 x-rays, mind you!), I had vets in Vt. and Ct. and Md. scratching their heads as to why Buster was on-his-head lame. If Buster can go to Cornell and teach other vets how to diagnose an undiagnosable lameness, some good will have come of this. It will save some other poor horse the agony Buster went through in the eight months before he was finally diagnosed.

Louise, I will e-mail you. Thank you.

BTW, my trainer’s husband believes Buster can stay sound on 4 grams of Bute, and he thinks keeping Buster on 4 grams of Bute is doing him no disservice. He says lots of horses are kept up like that. . . . So I guess he would agree with you, Louise.

[Merry]

Are you indeed willing to ship him out here?

Would he stay sound enough to be used as a walk/trot lesson horse? Would you be willing to pay his farrier bill in exchange for “giving” him to a reputable riding school as a beginner lesson horse until he could no longer provide that service, and needed to be put down?

What about using him as a trail horse/pony horse? Is he bombproof on the trails? Could he eventually be a mounted police horse?

… or is he a total cripple? I mean, even with the expensive shoes and bute on the days he’s going to be used, does he still limp? If he’s not out every day, does he get high, in which case he needs to be lunged before a beginner’s lesson, which then makes him lame?

The reason I’m asking is because I can think of several horses that have been essentially “feed leased” to nice riding schools or people who have horse property. These horses are maintained by the leasees, but they don’t own the horse. It’s done with the understanding that eventually the horse may become so unsound that it’s unuseable, in which case you’ll have to authorize him being put down. There’s one appy mare who is yes, “off”, but a young woman with some mental disabilities “owns” her and the mare has taught this gal to ride and is still going strong after 3 years!

[JRG]

This is such a horrible thing to deal with. Now not all horses show clean on an x-ray, I wonder if it is not the ringbone that makes him “on his head lame”. I would tend to think that, shoeing him for Naviclular up front would eleviate the pressure of the overload to lighten the back end. In addition, that may be why he runs around like it doensn’t bother him, when it is calssifing but the excess concussion may “loosen” the area making him sore. Did they tell you what type of ringbone?

[elizabeth]

Oh, mrs.
I’m sorry. That’s very sad.
But thank you for sharing. I am glad you and my other friends out here on the BB understand and are willing to share their stories to help me.

This is hard stuff we are dealing with. I had to put my dog to sleep, when she was 15. Up until the day I had to put her to sleep, I prayed that God would just take her, so that I didn’t have to make the decision. It sucks. No two ways about it.

[Harley]

Elizabeth- I am so sorry for your delima. What a difficult decision to make. I gave my 17yr TB away early last year. They promised me the world about his care. My trainer, at the time, knew the aunt of this person and said he would have a good home. About 3 months later I happened to be in the neighborhood so I stopped by. I had never seen my horse in such ‘bad’ condition. No longer bright eyed. Manure caked all over him and was DEAD lame. Needless to say they called me about 3 days later and gave him back. He is now at a nice barn with someone that takes great care of him. So there are two sides of the coin.

But, if you decide to move Buster out to So. Cal, the place I used to board my other horse is decent - NOT a show barn and CHEAP!! It is in the hills of Lake View Terrace (near Hansen Dam Equestrian Center) They feed decent alfalfa and oat. You can have a choice of a 12X12 box, 12X24 breezway barn (pipes), and across the street or up above they have a lot of different wierd sizes…like 12x40 pipes, 24X36 etc. The barn manager is ok. However, they have two nice women that run their own english and western pleasure school. They teach the basics, W-T-C and X rails. One of my friends still boards there and if you put Buster in the 12X24 breezeway, there is a lot of people traffic and everyone says hi to all the horses and gives them carrots. It is a real homey barn. Who knows, maybe the women that run the school may have use for something like Buster and maybe eventually be able to free lease him to a student.

There is also a nice pasture, I think it is like 300 acres on the north side in Chatsworth. I think the cost is reasonable, but I don’t know much about how the place is run.

There is also a retirement home in Tujunga Canyon, Sun Valley where your horse is turned out with a small band of horses during the day. Then called back to their stalls for dinner and blanketing, etc at night.

If you are interested in any of the above, you can e-mail me and I’ll pass on the names and phone numbers.

Good luck on your decision!

[Bertie]

Wow, I just read this thread from the beginning without looking at the dates of the messages. I didn’t realize it was an old thread! Thought it was a brand new one that had gotten a lot of posts right away LOL.

AAjumper’s message gave me goosebumps! I am SO happy to hear that Buster is now in CA with Elizabeth! What a great turn this story took!!!

Lara - Thank you for posting your message about donating horses to therapeutic programs. It’s very helpful. I for one wasn’t aware of how important it is that the horses used in the programs travel evenly. It makes perfect sense.