query

[QUOTE=Elghund2;4311544]
They are not marked Lex, it is just something you know by knowing the landowners and communicating with them.[/QUOTE]

Do the landowners themselves physically mark the boundaries of those fields in some fashion be it a sign or whatever so people know not to tread on the soil? That’s what I want to know. I don’t expect anyone to mark things on a map but it would be nice to know when you’re actually there. I don’t expect that all of them do but it would be peace of mind if someone usually did.

I think the basic message is when in doubt stay on the very edges.

Hunts create their own reserves with the MFHA. The reserves can change all the time. We had one hunt in Mississippi, which split twenty years or so ago. In the split, the first hunt’s reserve was also divided. Then that hunt moved east in the state and merged with an Alabama hunt. A Memphis area hunt had lost most of its territory to urbanization and had some landowners on the west side of Mississippi, so the Alabama/Mississippi hunt released its reserve in Northwest Mississippi to the Tennessee hunt.

But within the reserve that is registered with the MFHA only the hunt who holds that reserve can use it (with landowners’ permission) unless it gives permission to another MFHA hunt.

There was quite a kerfluffle in West Tennessee over an MFHA reserve and a landowner who started her own pack in another hunt’s territory.

[QUOTE=LexInVA;4311670]
Do the landowners themselves physically mark the boundaries of those fields in some fashion be it a sign or whatever so people know not to tread on the soil? That’s what I want to know. I don’t expect anyone to mark things on a map but it would be nice to know when you’re actually there. I don’t expect that all of them do but it would be peace of mind if someone usually did.[/QUOTE]

Oh - I understand what you’re asking now.

No. Farms are often fragmented and several different crops might be planted. Crops rotate one season to the next, and you never gallop on hayfields unless the landowner gives prior approval. But here’s how a foxhunter knows where he can and cannot go.

He reads the land.

You don’t go in the corn. The huntsman may send hounds into the corn - but the hounds do not damage the crop. A whip or the huntsman may need to go into the corn, but they don’t trample it - they stay in the middle of the rows.

The field remains outside the corn and goes around the crop - which can be very painful because there is often little to no room between the edge of the cornfield and the tree line.

Beans - you NEVER go into the beans. Hounds do not go into beans. God almighty Himself does not go into the beans. Never. You go around.

When the corns and beans are harvested - you can tell. The field looks shaven - there is stubble, ruts and other signs of harvest. Then it is ok to cross the field.

Some farmers leave it fallow - and you can go across the field all winter. Other farmers will cultivate and overseed - and that is a seeded field.

It looks beautifully groomed. Smooth. And you’ll see winter grasses coming up.

And like beans - God Almighty Himself does not venture into such a field.

But there is no need for a farmer to mark anything. The foxhunter or other hunter can tell just by reading the land.

Around here, hunting season ends when foxes are denning in preparation of giving birth, and that’s also about the same time farmers are starting to gear up for planting.

So the season ends and farming begins. Natural cycle.

Also - the Master is in contact with the landowner - the season is planned and we don’t just show up and hunt. No fixture is hunted more than a couple of times during a season - so the habitat and animals are not stressed or overhunted. That is all planned in advance. Also, the landowner is often there when we arrive (and sometimes joins us in a truck or on his horse), and he’ll do things like say - oh - stay out of that far pasture near the water tower, my cousin set up his blind and is coming tomorrow. Or, I seeded near the road so don’t bother going over there - you can’t get in.

But otherwise we carefully read the land.

Hope that helps.

ETA: If you ever make the mistake of disturbing a crop or seeded field, you will learn a lesson you will never forget. It will be a very public and humiliating lesson, given by the Master. I’ve known people who were excused and not invited back by just disobeying the Field Master or larking. There are only a few commandments in foxhunting - and respect for the landowner is the First Commandment.

Good to know! I’ll have to keep a sharp eye out on the terrain so I can pick up on those things when I’m out there and I’ll be sure to not wander away if my curious nature gets the better of me.

[QUOTE=LexInVA;4312620]
Good to know! I’ll have to keep a sharp eye out on the terrain so I can pick up on those things when I’m out there and I’ll be sure to not wander away if my curious nature gets the better of me.[/QUOTE]

should maybe someone put a leash on you until you learn the commands?

Come here, Lex…no, bad Lex, come here!

So another, somewhat related questions…that incident a few months back where a hunt in Southeastern PA went onto property not part of the hunt in order to retrieve two hounds - the one where the entire field went galloping onto the property…is there a regulation for that with the MFHA? Is that a de-registerable offense or is it a pay for repairs and offer fruit basket-apology type offense?

it is my understanding that the entire field did not need to go onto this person’s property and purposefully did, knowing (the master and the whip surely knew, maybe not the entire field) that the land was not part of the hunt.

Was that the incident with the assault charges?

[QUOTE=LexInVA;4312923]
Was that the incident with the assault charges?[/QUOTE]

I thinks so, I’m trying to find it now.

EDIT: Found it, here’s the original thread: http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=193928&highlight=trespassing

and the article: http://dailylocal.com/articles/2009/02/09/news/srv0000004659514.txt

I’m not sure what happened to the huntsman - in Virginia and a lot of other states a hunter (in this case a huntsman or whipper-in) is permitted to enter onto private land to retrieve an errant hound. In other states, you can retrieve your hound or tracked and retrieve legally downed game. It’s pretty common and it isn’t considered a criminal trespass.

You’re not allowed to do anything else except retrieve and leave immediately.

But in no case would that ever apply to the field.

That law doesn’t exist in PA as far as I know, though most landowners would want someone to come get their dog or wounded game and I don’t think it’s a source of complaints to the warden. Not that I know of.

I don’t know what happened to the huntsman in that particular case, but from what I know the accusation that the field trespassed was false.

Even when hiking or trail riding it’s often hard to know if you’re trespassing or not unless the land is posted. Not all states require a landowner to post land - so a person can be trespassing and not even know it.

It’s kind of a no win situation. The person doesn’t intend to trespass, but simply does it by accident. Or, the person does intend to trespass and is using the excuse that the land isn’t posted so he didn’t know where the property lines were. I’ve heard that one before - a trespasser on my land.

In my experience the worst offenders are ATV riders and recreational equestrians, not foxhunters. Foxhunters usually know the territory better and know they risk a great deal if they make a mistake.

That a hunt would merely offer a “gift basket” is rather ridiculous. Anyone who uses the land of another is responsible for repairing all damage, and that doesn’t just apply to hunters, but to all recreational use of land.

Offering the landowner a sincere apology, card or gift is merely good manners. Repairing damage - obligatory.

I’m rather curious why you pop in on these threads when you have often demonstrated complete disregard and disdain for anything related to foxhunting.

I can assure you that foxhunters do not go around damaging people’s land, and they obey all game laws and respect property rights. In the years I’ve hunted I only recall one incident in which some guests decided to take a shortcut across a field in annual rye- completely disregarding the Field Master’s direct order. Those people were excused from the field immediately and not permitted back. The damage was reported to the landowner who laughed and said don’t worry about it.

But the guests were still not allowed back.

Foxhunting is very strict. There is no ground jury, no appeals, no arguing with TD’s. The rules are clear and there is no wiggle room.

If you show disrespect, engage in unsportsmanlike behavior, cannot control your horse, disobey instructions, abuse property rights, or commit other sins you’re excused. And you’re not welcome back.

Innocent errors, learning errors, an accidental misstep - that’s a different story. You’ll be corrected and given a chance as long as you show a good attitude.

But don’t show up and expect to gallop around willy nilly and not obey instruction or just go where ever you want. Foxhunting is extremely organized and there is a hierarchy and strict rules. One rule is - stay together - no larking.

Larking, for those of you who don’t have it in your vocabulary or own a dictionary, as used in the context of this discussion, means to frolic around on a horse without any concern for the protocols of the Hunt and the safety of those around you.

Some of the eastern states with British legal traditions still have the concepts of “ancient rights of way”–public access to paths that have been used by the public to cross private property. It seems that this concept may be disappearing or is unknown to most people, but once a right of way has been dedicated by the public using it for a specific period of time without the landowner’s permission, a landowner can’t just close it off.

That’s the primary purpose of posting–to protect land from becoming public. That’s also why you’ll see barriers erected across roads for a brief period of time.

We fight this with hunters and ATV riders all the time. Our turnrows and tractor tracks are not public rights of way and we don’t want them to become ones either.

I know what you’re talking about Vineypoo. There’s a term for it in modern land-use and property ownership laws that is applied in many places though some places are more middle-of-the-road in how they apply it.

Vineyridge - doesn’t that apply only to paths designed to get from point A to point B? Anywhere we have had rights of way it was either a shared driveway or a path specifically used to get to a specific place, as in from the road to the state park or to a neighborhood.

Would that include trail riding or hunting on land? Such as instead of using an old path to cross a farm to get to your neighborhood, you have always hunted or trail rode on the farm.

Maybe it is in how you interpret the tradition. I am not sure if I ever knew it as a law on the books, but more of a tradition or understanding, except in a few instances. One would be my friend’s house. The land was sold, undeveloped, with a shared driveway in the deed. Neither owner could claim rights to the driveway.

From what my friends in Southeastern PA tell me, there is a growing problem between new land owners and existing residents. Existing residents, mostly ones that trail rode on what was farms and is now farmettes or small developments think it is still their right to ride their horses across the new properties, without asking permission. It does not make for good neighbors.

You also said you need to block the road for a specific time. Is that as in for a month or every evening for the rest of your ownership?

It’s called a prescriptive easement and it exists in the entire US, as we based our legal system on the UK. Might be called by different names, though. There are different types of easements. A prescriptive easement is only one type of easement. There are others one type allows a landlocked owner an easement to reach the roadway. Some easements are granted, others purchased. There are easements for views, utilities, some are implied, and there are easements for light (the sun)

But the laws of trespass and easements are a bit different from state to state, so the answers can be found within the individual state code and case law.

In the case of certain types of trespass, exceptions exist for certain activities and again some of that varies from state to state depending up on what type of activity.

Your state code also specifies how property is to be posted, or their may be no requirement for posting. That also makes it very confusing.

Even if you post the land, it doesn’t mean you can’t permit someone to hunt on it. It just means people without your permission cannot enter and use your land. That type of permission does NOT create an easement.

In states with recreational use statutes, if you do NOT charge people to use your land you are protected from liability if that person becomes injured. If you charge someone money - you are liable if that person becomes injured, even if it is through no fault of your own.

In states that permit a very narrow exception to retrieve trash, game or a dog or child, the landowner is likewise fully protected from liability, and and the statutes protect the landowner further by ensuring the landowner can go after the individual if any property is damaged.

f you let someone hunt on your land, in my state there is a form you can give the hunter (or hiker, angler, ATV/horseback rider) that gives him permission to be on your land. It’s not obligatory but if the police or CPO are called, it can help avoid any misunderstanding.

If folks have really specific questions about MFHA policy - they’ll have to call the MFHA. No one is hiding anything, there is no secret conclave or cabal, conspiracy, men in black or black helicopters.
They’re just clubs that have permission to hunt on large parcels of private and public land, and they do so legally, ethically and responsibly. There’s no more to it than that.

ETA - trail riding or hunting does not create a prescriptive easement. A landowner can create a formal easement granting that right - but simply trail riding on land for 20 years does not create an easement, and no one has the right to continue using that land without the new landowners permission.

One thing that might happen to any innocent person is not knowing that the land has been sold. So, let’s say Farmer Bob has let his neighbors ride on his land for 50 years. Farmer Bob decides to shave off part of the farm, sells it to a newcomer, who builds a McMansion. Farmer Bob doesn’t tell anyone because it’s no one’s business. Neighbors don’t know, because the newcomer doesn’t mix with the local. Land isn’t posted.

Months later some folks decide to go on a nice trail ride and get arrested for trespassing on the urban refugees land. Usually these things are just smoothed over easily - the riders apologize, the landowner explains that he now owns the land and doesn’t want other people on it. It’s sad - but that’s the way of things.

But if you get a landowner who is a real jerk, the type to scream, threaten, chase people with a weapon or blunt object, and who insists the cops arrest the person… well then you got trouble. Especially if the trail riders don’t understand how easements work and honestly believe it’s ok for them to be there, or who are truly innocent but the landowner has “issues”.

We used to hunt a very large and beautiful piece of property, which now houses the Atlanta Steeplechase and the occasional hunter pace. There is a particularly nice section with an avenue of old oak trees planted in two long rows with an avenue down the middle. When we hunted, there were gratuitous jumps set up down the avenue, and it was a delight to ride. After the hunt closed down the only opportunities to ride the property were the hunter paces. The first was in the spring when the grass was new and everything was bursting out. The pace was routed down the avenue either side of which is a sod farm. Well - you just know what happened ! All the yahoos thought it was just dandy to go larking about on the sod, despite being told by the hunters not to. I can only imagine the owners reaction to the afront. Since that time the pace has always been routed away from that lovely area, and I am surprised at the owners grace in letting the property continue to be used.

I don’t have the facts on the referenced Pennsylvania incident (although its repeated posting suggests an agenda possibly not borne out by the facts)- but most hunts, if not all, have patches of land they aren’t allowed to cross or enter owing to lack of permission for one reason or another. I have never known a hunt to allow the field to cross such property- that would be either ignorance or arrogance, both completely unacceptable to ‘real’ foxhunters.

As regards individual riders crossing hunt country, thinking that because they are members they have permission to use that land/trails year 'round- that is a mortal sin drummed into every hunt member, every year.

But, alas, foxhunting is no different from other pursuits, there are a few idiots in every crowd. Never a reason to condemn the entire crowd, though.

[QUOTE=Beverley;4316182]
I don’t have the facts on the referenced Pennsylvania incident (although its repeated posting suggests an agenda possibly not borne out by the facts)- but most hunts, if not all, have patches of land they aren’t allowed to cross or enter owing to lack of permission for one reason or another. I have never known a hunt to allow the field to cross such property- that would be either ignorance or arrogance, both completely unacceptable to ‘real’ foxhunters.

As regards individual riders crossing hunt country, thinking that because they are members they have permission to use that land/trails year 'round- that is a mortal sin drummed into every hunt member, every year.

But, alas, foxhunting is no different from other pursuits, there are a few idiots in every crowd. Never a reason to condemn the entire crowd, though.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Beverly - I was wondering if the MFHA had provisions for this. The Radnor Hunt has a reputation with a lot of non-foxhunters, but the owners in the dispute seem to have a reputation as well (I think that’s the assault Lex and I were remembering - the property owner had been charged with assault before). I have not found anything stating what the outcome is, so who knows.

I imagine hunt territory that is on private property is not open to trail riding other times of the year to help keep trail erosion and other management issues to a minimum. I am assuming you are talking about someone thinking simply because they are member of the hunt, they can trail ride on certain territories, without asking the owner of those properties - but as long as it is alright with the owner, they can ride outside of a hunt.

Yes- I am talking about the stupid misconception some people have that because they pay their hunt dues, they can ride on private land in hunt country as often as they wish. Most definitely not so. A landowner’s permission for THE HUNT to pass through on hunting days does not extend to the random individual member. Sadly, too many assume otherwise, despite constant reminders by masters. But yes, if a hunt member goes and gets permission as an individual, it’s fine.

I never figured out how it got as far as it did without that issue being resolved. According to media coverage, one side said one mounted person went onto land to retrieve hounds. The other side said the entire field galloped across the property even though they had been informed they were not welcome. Law enforcement was called.

You don’t need to be tracking or crime scene expert to look down and quickly figure out which side has issues with honesty. Ground that 30 horses has been over looks very different to ground that 1 horse has been over.