Question about DEBARKING.

Why is this considered cruel? Any vets on here? Kinda a vent.

Please sharky replies it a legitimate question.

Its my understanding that the vocal cords are cut and the dogs can still bark just not as loudly and is not painful and doesn’t otherwise affect the health of the dog. Is this not the case? I am genuinely curious.

For those who want to know why I ask…my parents are older and live in a community. They lost there dog that was 21 yrs old. Anyway they didn’t think they wanted a another do to there age but they got another. It took about 5 min for my parents to be overjoyed. BUT they dog DOES NOT STOP BARKING. They have gotten every anti bark collar out there didn’t phase him. They spent 1800.00 but on pro dog trainer to train them and the dog. Nothing. Now they may have to give the dog up because of it. So I mentioned to ask vet about debarking…Well that turned into a huge argument with calling my parents cruel and should never own a animal…HMMMMM the last dog they had lived 21 years…trust me he was cared for. My parents are older kind people and would never consider doing anything to hurt a pet. I m annoyed at the response from the vet tech as they very very upset when mom called me about what the tech told her. Anyway kinda a rant I guess it will kill them to get rid of him they are so attached.

So Why is it cruel? They are people who had to have this done and while I am sure it wasn’t a choice the one I know is a happy guy and doesn’t have any other affects from this.

T,I,A.

The only debarked dog I have known had a “bark” that was much more annoying than her former bark. (Not my dog, owned by an acquaintance who had adopted her, she was already debarked at that time).

I realize that that doesn’t answer your question but I don’t have an answer for that. :slight_smile:

It is illegal in multiple states. The dogs I know who have undergone the procedure (common in shelties and fairly commonly done/required by some show handlers) still sound pretty obnoxious. I have not done the procedure and don’t know how, so cannot comment on pain level, etc.

Did your parents talk to the vet directly?

It is not the place of the assistant to tell the client anything about the dog that the vet has not already heard and determined.

I have asked vets over years about debarking and declawing and other such alterations, as it came up on the dog club discussions.

Most vets have said, “it depends”.
Now, that was years ago, don’t know today.

A dog that is a serious problem because of non-stop barking, that is in an otherwise very good home, debarking may keep the dog in that home.
They won’t suggest it, but if asked, “it depends” if they will agree to do it or not.

Have your parents ask the vet directly and shop vets around, until they are happy that maybe they should let the dog go, or do the surgery, once they have more to go by.

Plenty of show dogs, many shelties, seem to be debarked, the way they sound when you go by their crates at shows.

Have them check out ultrasonic bark deterrent bird house. No reason it couldn’t be used inside.

Hi
I am not sure if it was the Vet or the tech. My mom seemed to think it was a tech. This is a pomerian that they got from the shelter…hmmmm maybe this is why he was in the shelter. Their last dog was a Pom. Im not sure f she would try any other vets she was in tears over what was said. I just don’t see where the cruelty is in this procedure. Thats why I asked the question here. I find this is the best place for answers to pet/horse questions. If its just that your changing the dog one could argue so is neutering/spaying. Well I m not trying to be agruinemtive I was upset because my mom was so upset.
She has truly tried every other option paid 1800.00 for two diff pro dog trainers to train her and the dog and all the gimmick collars.They love the lil guy and he is such good company for them and so good in every other way. Just the consist shrill barking…at anything.
Thanks

Debarking itself is, IMO, not a particularly barbaric procedure. I would never ever ever declaw a cat, but under the correct circumstances I would consider debarking a dog. It’s less invasive than sterilization, and the dogs don’t seem to have any idea that they can’t bark.

That said, dogs bark for different reasons. The most common reason they bark:

  • Anxiety (separation or otherwise)
  • Boredom
  • Lack of exercise
  • Lack of training

NONE of these are appropriate reasons to have a dog debarked. A dog making noise for any of those reasons is just going to be made more miserable by debarking, because it will allow his owners to more easily ignore his distress.

On the other hand, once you rule out those reasons for barking, some dogs are just very vocal and have a “hair trigger” bark. Many shelties and mini schnauzers are like this.

A lot of people think debarking involves the removal of the vocal cords entirely. THIS IS NOT THE CASE. The debarking procedure is simple- the vet uses a laser or small surgical punch to remove a small amount of tissue from the vocal cords. Just like a flag would catch less wind if it had a hole, a vocal cord with a hole doesn’t catch as much air (therefore doesn’t vibrate as much, reducing the volume of the bark).

My own sheltie is very very good about not barking at people walking by the house and other common “nuisance” barking, but he just. can’t. help. himself. once he its a certain level of excitement. It just slips out. He doesn’t even seem to realize he’s making noise some of the time. But I got a sheltie and know that some level of barking is to be expected.

In contrast, my last sheltie was a rescue who was not good about nuisance-type barking. Despite plenty of training and a huge amount of exercise, he was just loud. He barked at leaves blowing, cars driving by, kids in the street, the telephone ringing, hair dryers… my parents used to joke he barked at the grass growing. It was CONSTANT.

This meant he spent his days being constantly told to shut up. Every day, dozens of times a day, his behavior was corrected. To me it doesn’t matter if the correction is scolding or a shock collar… that’s not a fun life for a dog, their owner, or their neighbors.

Sheltie rescues get dogs that are on home #4, #5, #6, because of excessive barking. Dogs that have had household cleaners poured down their throats, their mouths tied shut, or their throat cut.

The point of my very long post being: I don’t think debarking should be a first-line solution to a yappy dog, but I also don’t think the procedure should be as villainized as it is. It’s not very invasive, the recovery time is quick, and it can save a dog from a lifetime of endless scolding or shock collars. For the right dog in the right situation, I think debarking (or “bark softening”) can be a good solution to nuisance noise.

Typically it doesn’t silence the dog, but reduces the volume/shrillness of the bark and makes them sound pretty hoarse.

If your parents have tried increasing exercise, worked through behavioral modification with a behaviorist (i.e., not just the bark collar… that’s a band-aid, not addressing the underlying desire to bark), and the dog continues to bark… IMO it’s worth considering as a quality of life measure for all parties involved. The dog can literally “bark” as much as they want, and their owners can maintain their sanity.

Here’s a bit more information, from the National Animal Interest Alliance.

is the dog barking for a reason (hearing noises in/around there house, barking from excitement, barking from being kenneled/locked up) or does there seem to be no reason for it at all?
Try kikopup on youtube. She seems to have great ideas on how to curb nuissance barking/reactiveness, but they obviously will take time and effort to train in.

If it was my absolute 100% last resort to keep the dog with me I may possible consider it, but I can’t see me ever doing it to one of my dogs.

Beyond the idea that it is cruel I cannot imagine why it would be painful or create ongoing trauma for a dog.

In the mean time have they tried exercising a solid week where they did 45-60 minutes of vigorous leashed walking twice a day? A brisk focused walk can really drain a dog and I would be surprised if the barking didn’t decrease substantially.

A tired dog has a lot less motivation to bark.

Why is the dog constantly barking?
Bored, too much energy, lonely. no exercise?
I read that your parents are older, and maybe really could use a dog that is more sedate and likes to just hang out. Poms are pretty hyper little things.
Just wondering if there is not a better choice for them.

Debarked dogs still bark and the ones I know are at least as annoying if not more so than they were before.

Personally, I have a hard time believing that every bark collar and trainer has failed to improve the situation. Dogs bark for a reason, though sometimes that reason is they need more exercise, or a different living environment. I have a hard time justifying slicing out my dogs vocal cords because I cannot find a way to fix the underlying problem.

People, there is barking and there is BARKING all day long without reason “just because that is what I do”, like chasing tails or licking a leg or flank, like a horse cribbing or weaving.
Some dogs truly can’t help themselves barking at all and everything, real or imaginary.

You can train a dog to stop barking, but it is much harder to keep one of those over the top barkers from starting to bark.

You think the shelter would have warned them about this, they surely knew how that dog barked and should not have placed him in a neighborhood and home where that is a problem.

No one here can tell them what to do, they need to get a second opinion and then decide what is best for all, dog and dog owners.

I think that many people think it’s cruel because of the way the dog sounds afterwards. There’s still an unpleasant hoarse, muffled sound from some dogs. People may assume that it’s painful. Given the frequency of my parent’s dogs barking after being “debarked”, I seriously doubt it is.

My parents, also older people, were inconsistent and ineffective in training their two papillons not to bark. The dogs barked at anything and nothing all day long. A housefly or an airplane overhead were big emergencies for the girls, and my parents lived under one of the main flight paths for a major airport, with planes passing every 5 minutes. They had both of the dogs debarked. One regained sound but lost her shrill edge and was fine for the rest of her 16 year life. The other, a continuous, daylong barker, kept building up her barking until she was back to being loud. After the third time they had her debarked, they gave up.

It’s not a choice I would make, but I prefer a naturally quiet breed to begin with, and have never dealt with the issue.

Hi
L Palomino Hunter…Thank you perfect reply.

  My mom is a avid walker. on a average day she walks 5 miles (per her FitBit)....not at one time though the day. She always has been and still does very day. I am half her age and she wears me out. So the exercise is not the issue he gets plenty with her alone plus my Dad due to some physical reasons walks one around the block at some point. 

What is he barking at…? Everything. People walking down the street, if anyone gets up out of a chair,if the phone rings, if she’s cooking, if she goes to the bathroom, bugs,birds flying, any noise at all. There really is no ryham or reason. When she got him they both took him to a basic dog class at a chain store and the barking was a issue but they thought he would adjust to new life… not.

As I said they have really run the course. this wasn’t a well its too much work. They enjoy doing things with the dog making him part of things. He is only created at night or when they are not home so I don’t think that is a issue. They had a two pro dog trainers that they paid a lot of money to to help train dog and THEM. It was also kinda a fun thing to do in a effort to fix the problem.

The dog was a shelter dog and Id bet money that that was why he was in the shelter to begin with. The barking is bad and its a shrilly loud bark. We are just worried that if we can’t get it under control they will had to give him up because at this point they simply cannot move. Someone mentioned the debarking and honestly seemed like a good idea assuming it wasn’t harmful and I have not found anything to say that it is harmful to the dog. So I was as surprised at the response from the vet office as my mom. It was harsh and uncalled for especially when it was a innocent inquiry. And really all said I think she’s spent well over 2000.00 bucks on books ,training and collars. So I think she done her due diligence in trying to fix the issue.

As I said I was looking for the “why” is this cruel to the dog. I have not read anything yet that supports that this is harmful to the animal. It seems to be more opinion that it is cruel. Like I said earlier if it cause your changing the dog then why are we spaying and neutering…why not be more vigilant in making sure our pets don’t bred…yes thats a extreme example I know. Just looking for the real cruelty in this.

Thanks again for the replies

They wanted a shelter dog because they have a good home to give one and they have had pomerainans since before me and low and behold there was one at the shelter that day…sigh…

As for the they haven’t worked hard enough…its been over 10 months and I promise they have followed the trainers instruction to the letter…They have a “do and Don’t list” on the fridge. They have taking this serisouly.

A debarked dog makes a high pitched squeaky noise that is 100% more annoying than a regular bark. When working at the shelter I came across a few that had been debarked- usually yorkies. It’s an awful, grating sound.

Make sure your parents look at their adoption contract. Many rescues prohibit things like debarking and declawing.

Beyond that, I have heard that teaching a dog a cue to bark helps. May be worth a shot.

I’ve read and heard that it’s important to keep the dog quiet during the healing process, otherwise scar tissue can develop and somehow ruin the debark procedure. Always seemed like a really tough thing to me…If it’s possible to keep the dog from barking, why would you even need to do it?

Thankfully, I’ve never had barky dogs, so have never looked into the veracity of that claim. Does anyone know if it’s true you have to keep them from barking during healing?

[QUOTE=Bluey;8544171]
People, there is barking and there is BARKING all day long without reason “just because that is what I do”, like chasing tails or licking a leg or flank, like a horse cribbing or weaving.
Some dogs truly can’t help themselves barking at all and everything, real or imaginary.

You can train a dog to stop barking, but it is much harder to keep one of those over the top barkers from starting to bark.

You think the shelter would have warned them about this, they surely knew how that dog barked and should not have placed him in a neighborhood and home where that is a problem.

No one here can tell them what to do, they need to get a second opinion and then decide what is best for all, dog and dog owners.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Sometimes a little dog like a Pomeranian is excitable and just barks all of the time for no reason . . . just because. They can be excitable and high energy and bark because that is the tendency of that particular dog. I’ve known several dogs that were barky. All of them were in training, exercised, and had particularly dog-centered homes - but they’re tendency was to bark when excited, and they were excited often because they were high energy animals.
I’m assuming that they’ve tried a bark collar?
I’d suggest asking the trainer that they’ve hired about de-barking. If it’s legal where they are, then perhaps you can help by calling different veterinary clinics and seeing if there is one that will de-bark the dog if training has been attempted.
I think that probably some of the reputation behind debarking is because it is often done to dogs in large kennels, who are barking a lot because they are in a kennel situation where it is a natural thing to bark, and that isn’t really fair. Personally I think that where a dog is getting a lot of enrichment as this one is, perhaps debarking wouldn’t be horrible.
Of course the dog will still bark, but it will be more of a hoarse sound. I knew a poodle that was debarked when living in a large kennel. She was later rehomed, and the sound did sadden the new owner - but the dog never had problems and lived a long and happy life.
If it came down to rehoming the dog or debarking the dog, I’d debark the dog. The dog is in a home with walks and people to play with it and has had training. It sounds like the dog just has one of those personalities where she expresses herself by barking and it’s a self rewarding activity.

A good quality bark collar should do the trick. The cheap ones are useless garbage, as are the citronella spray collars. Dogtra Yapper Stopper is the best out there. Expect a pretty strong reaction the first time the dog tries to bark, and make sure the bark collar is adjusted snugly, right up behind the skull.

Debarking doesn’t change much…the dog usually ends up sounding like a barking dog that’s been smoking three packs a day for ten years. It’s awful, and it doesn’t change much of anything.

I have only seen one debarked dog. He was a top local agility dog, well trained, lots of exercise and interaction with people and other dogs. He just never. stopped. barking. EVER He didn’t have any issues, just sounded very quiet and hoarse.

I think the problem is that the surgery doesn’t take away the reason why the dog barks. So if it’s a stress reason, the dog will still be stressed. He’ll just be making a different sound. Dogs can bark because they’re bored, lonely, or threatened. Debarking doesn’t address the environmental issues that are causing the any of these feelings. In fact, if the dog is quieter there is less incentive for the owner to notice and address any environmental issue. IMHO buying a bunch of books and collars is not adressing the environmental issue. It may be well intentioned, but spending a lot of money does not necessarily equate to being effective. Finding a trainer who specializes with the issue and really devoting time/energy to behavioral modification/training/changing the enviornment is what may be necessary. If the first one you try doesn’t work, try another. 10 months is not a long time to rewire a well-ingrained response in a dog.

Before I resorted to something like this, I’d do everything I could to address the enviornment. I would actually never do it, for numerous reasons. It’s also banned where I live. But before anyone considers an ireversible surgery that is for owner convincence only, I would hope that they had truly exhasted ALL reasonable options. It’s a surgery. On the throat. It can have serious side effects/complications immediately or down the line. Not to mention the risk of anestesia, like any surgery. For an elective procedure that does nothing for the dog, only the owner. Spaying/neutering is beneficial for the dog and for the population in general. Debarking does nothing for the dog. It only makes the owner happier. Potentially at the expense of the dog’s comfort.