Question about DEBARKING.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8544727]
I think the problem is that the surgery doesn’t take away the reason why the dog barks. So if it’s a stress reason, the dog will still be stressed. He’ll just be making a different sound. Dogs can bark because they’re bored, lonely, or threatened. Debarking doesn’t address the environmental issues that are causing the any of these feelings. In fact, if the dog is quieter there is less incentive for the owner to notice and address any environmental issue. IMHO buying a bunch of books and collars is not adressing the environmental issue. It may be well intentioned, but spending a lot of money does not necessarily equate to being effective. Finding a trainer who specializes with the issue and really devoting time/energy to behavioral modification/training/changing the enviornment is what may be necessary. If the first one you try doesn’t work, try another.

Before I resorted to something like this, I’d do everything I could to address the enviornment. I would actually never do it, for numerous reasons. It’s also banned where I live. But before anyone considers an ireversible surgery that is for owner convincence only, I would hope that they had truly exhasted ALL reasonable options. It’s a surgery. On the throat. It can have serious side effects/complications immediately or down the line. Not to mention the risk of anestesia, like any surgery. For an elective procedure that does nothing for the dog, only the owner. Spaying/neutering is beneficial for the dog and for the population in general. Debarking does nothing for the dog. It only makes the owner happier. Potentially at the expense of the dog’s comfort.[/QUOTE]

If you read what the OP has posted, they have done all that anyone could, used no-bark collars, taken the dog to obedience classes, used two private trainers, what else do you want them to do?

As for dogs barking too much, there are some that just bark, no reason necessary, not stressed, exercised and trained properly, they bark like they breathe, is a glitch in their barking mechanism.
We had two shelties and one was like that, would bark at all and any, it is how her brain was wired, she came at four months from a puppy mill, very sick and just barked all the time once she recuperated.
Phone would ring, she whirled and barked, then remember she was not supposed to and would stop and stand there for a minute and someone moved again whirl and bark, etc.
No, we didn’t debark her, but we don’t have to make a choice to rehome a dog that barks over the top, they are ok here, without neighbors.
We had a toy poodle almost as bad, but the difference was clear, the sheltie was impossible to manage, the toy poodle you could stop before she got started or right after, she didn’t lose her senses while barking wildly.

That kind of out of control frantic barking could be said it is similar to a mental disorder in some dogs, I think.

Don’t know how you address that 24/7 problem, because we just can’t be there 24/7 for the dog.

Debarking may not be a good solution, but maybe, for this dog, worth asking further about it is ok, without being called uncaring and bad owners for considering it.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8544753]
If you read what the OP has posted, they have done all that anyone could, used no-bark collars, taken the dog to obedience classes, used two private trainers, what else do you want them to do?[/QUOTE]

Exactly what I said they should do. Change the enviornment. Find a more effective trainer and work at it for longer than a few months.

[Daisyrae]

Bark collars

I’ve noticed with hairy dogs, bark collars and electric fence collars will not work unless they are tight enough. Try shaving a bit of the neck hair off or tightening the collar (within reason). Almost every hairy dog I’ve come across has manage to get through an electric fence or bark through a collar since they just dont feel the spark with all that hair.

[wireweiners]

I’m not a fan of debarking but I agree that there are some dogs that are just non stop barkers, no matter what. It sounds like the dog has a great home and the owners have exhausted all other options. I think debarking is preferable to euthanasia. However, the animal rights people who make these laws banning these procedures probably wouldn’t think so. BTW, the dog will still bark, just not loud enough to bother the neighbors.

[snowrider]

Supposedly Prozac can really help with obsessive behaviors and also alertness/ fear. Might be worth a try.

I’ve seen several debarked dogs, as noted above they are not silent. Although they are much quieter.

[Sswor]

I’d rather debark a dog like the one described by the OP then use an e-collar. My parents have a constant barker too. They have also exhausted all options and just learned to talk over her. Drives me batty but what can you do? They love their dog, just like OP’s parents. Thankfully they are not in a condo and neighbors aren’t an issue, but if they were and it was, I would urge debarking for their dog too, rather then euthanasia or risking their lease. Probably kinder to the dog to do a minor surgery then to subject a neurotic barker to repeated electric shocks.

[vxf111]

Based on the OP I didn’t see that euthanasia was an option. The OP’s grammar isn’t the clearest but I think the parents are planning to rehome the dog if they can’t control the barking. Rehoming might be what this dog needs. Reading between the lines the parents only have the 1 dog and this dog might be happier in a home with other pets. There are kinds of things about the environment that just might not work for this dog. He came from a shelter with unknown background and he seems not at all settled in the current home, finding him a different environment altogether might be in order. What if you cut his vocal chords and he’s still neurotic and unhappy? That seems quite likely given that no one had been able to get to the bottom of what’s triggering this dog.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8545754]
Based on the OP I didn’t see that euthanasia was an option. The OP’s grammar isn’t the clearest but I think the parents are planning to rehome the dog if they can’t control the barking. Rehoming might be what this dog needs. Reading between the lines the parents only have the 1 dog and this dog might be happier in a home with other pets. There are kinds of things about the environment that just might not work for this dog. He came from a shelter with unknown background and he seems not at all settled in the current home, finding him a different environment altogether might be in order. What if you cut his vocal chords and he’s still neurotic and unhappy? That seems quite likely given that no one had been able to get to the bottom of what’s triggering this dog.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think the dog is stressed and neurotic, I think he is just an idiopathic, over the top barker, no reason needed, it is who he is.

If they rehome him, will he again lose his home when they realize how much of a barker he is in his next home, and the next one?

Guess that is what they will have to decide, if to keep kicking him down the road, or what else can they do.

I don’t think some still understand what a real, chronic barker is, are thinking there is other there, which they may be, but really, not necessarily so.
Some dogs just bark all day long, is who they are and that is their normal.

[cnigh]

Have you tried getting him a friend? Maybe a cat or a different breed of dog. Something to keep his attention and tire him out. Dyna can’t bark half as much anymore because Amber will go beserk. Amber is young and barks and howls under her breathe.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8545760]
I don’t think the dog is stressed and neurotic, I think he is just an idiopathic, over the top barker, no reason needed, it is who he is.

If they rehome him, will he again lose his home when they realize how much of a barker he is in his next home, and the next one?

Guess that is what they will have to decide, if to keep kicking him down the road, or what else can they do.

I don’t think some still understand what a real, chronic barker is, are thinking there is other there, which they may be, but really, not necessarily so.
Some dogs just bark all day long, is who they are and that is their normal.[/QUOTE]

It’s amazing to me that you can diagnose over the internet what a minimum of 2 trainers could not! Don’t you think if the dog was idiopathic (whatever you mean by that) one of the trainers or it’s vet would have mentioned this by now?

Obviously if they rehome this dog they should do so with full disclosure to someone with a better environment. I don’t see where anyone suggested the contrary.

And yes, I know what a chronic barker is. I do agility. I train at a place that breeds shelties. Trust me. I am well aware what it’s like to have a dog that barks all the time. Doesn’t mean it can’t be managed.

[Nezzy]

We have an overeactive dog. He was abused and the breeder was across the country so we volunteered to foster him and then my hubby fell for him. We had been taking him to a trainer who told us- the shock collars make it worse- bc if it is anxiety based, getting shocked gives them another fear of what they were barking at. We have tried a lot of training, re-directing, etc… After 4 years we are now at the point of trying an herbal supplement to see if it helps his anxiety. if not, we are going on stronger anxiety meds. Would i debark him? Sure. But i don’t know if it would help. some people have said it makes the dogs vocals different but not necessarily better.

[MustangSavvy]

I would not debark a dog ever, I will also add that debarked dogs are far more annoying then a normal dog bark.

I suggest you try re-directing the behavior and working with the dog. Dogs bark when they are bored or anxious. This dog needs more exercise and brain games in the home. Not a surgical procedure in the absence of training. I suggest you find a good R+ trainer.

[Horsegal984]

From the American Veterinary Medical Association:
Potential complications — Bleeding, acute airway swelling, infection, coughing, gagging and aspiration pneumonia can occur after vocal cord surgery. There is a substantial risk for development of scar tissue and glottis stenosis (narrowing of the throat) after laryngeal surgery.2,10,11,12,13 Clinical signs resulting from scar formation (laryngeal webbing) include exercise intolerance, dyspnea (respiratory distress), stridor (noisy breathing), collapse and heat intolerance;10 affected dogs require further surgical intervention to ameliorate the problem.
Resumption of a near normal bark can also occur within months.2

So, are your parents willing to trade barking for a dog who cannot be active with them anymore? It’s a “simple procedure” in that anybody can take a scalpel and hack out the vocal cords. But not so simple in the risks that go along with it. Plus, MOST vets will not agree to do it, and I am willing to bet that if I called around to find a vet here that would do it it’s not a vet I would trust with my animals.

Link to AVMA here:
https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/LiteratureReviews/Documents/Backgrounder-Canine%20Devocalization-Final.pdf

[JBD]

We have a Pom and she is super yappy. But her barking usually has a cause even if it’s something the other dogs would ignore. She also uses it as a training tool - do what I want and the yapping stops. We have managed to install a No Barking button but its not fully operational and needs frequent maintenance. A water spray bottle usually works as a tune up.

And when we’re out of the house, it’s Barkarama time. Fortunately we don’t have close neighbors. She too was surrendered at the shelter but we don’t know if it was the barking or the fact she has seizures (that weren’t disclosed by her previous owner). They are serious enough she is on phenobarbital.

That said, she’s adorable and funny and I wouldn’t have missed having her for the world.

[french_fry]

I’m really curious as to what the trainer(s) said after working with your parents and their dog.

I ask specifically because I’m in a situation with my friend where she has been churning through $$$$ trainers to deal with her dog’s anxiety and insists that none of their methods work. In actuality, each one of the trainers’ pretty diverse methods has worked, but my friend completely neglects to do the homework and put the work in on her own.

She is otherwise a good dog owner and a smart person, but there is a (common, I think) fundamental disconnect where she doesn’t realize she has to work on the methods they did in the sessions often and exactly as they were done by the trainer. If she does do the exercises, she will skip steps, jump ahead, change the rules, etc.

If more than one separate trainer threw in the towel and said “there is literally nothing even the most qualified professional can do to rectify this issue” I would perhaps have a less knee-jerk reaction to the debarking idea. However, if the trainers created a program of exercise, mental stimulation, environmental management and exercises to work on consistently that has not been followed to the letter, then the training didn’t fail - your parents did.

I don’t say this to be hard on your parents, because they were probably looking for an easy dog - I know I was! But let’s face it - they adopted one of the barkiest breeds. They did not go into this blind.

[Unfforgettable]

I agree that the cause for the barking needs to be addressed. There are a zillion reasons why dogs bark, and without being there, it’s impossible to diagnose. One thing I will say is that a tired dog is a good dog. Maybe the dog needs a less sedentary lifestyle? I’ve also had some success by teaching dogs to bark on command, then quiet on command. After enough repetitions it can turn into a sort of on/off switch.

[FatCatFarm]

We have a 6 year old American Eskimo Spitz dog who is a retired breeder which we took in off of Craigslist. She is a lovely dog but does has some anxiety issues. I don’t know if they are just who she is or if she was handled a bit harshly previously. She has also been debarked which the previous owner failed to mention and who won’t now return my calls. She cannot bark what so ever. Her barks are only chuffs. It is kind of funny/cute but sad at the same time. She’s not a barky dog, so I can’t imagine why her previous owners had it done, but she is silent. YMMV.

[Bicoastal]

[QUOTE=Perfect10;8544220]
A debarked dog makes a high pitched squeaky noise that is 100% more annoying than a regular bark. When working at the shelter I came across a few that had been debarked- usually yorkies. It’s an awful, grating sound.[/QUOTE]

I hear several debarked dogs at trials. Beyond the ethics, my practical concern for your parents would be if the outcome can or cannot be guaranteed. What will the bark sound like after the procedure? I don’t know Sheltie people intimately enough to ask if the vet has any control over what sort of noise will be produced. Can you choose like with an ear crop? :lol: Some are very soft, some very hoarse, some squeaky, some rather loud.

[spook1]

Hi All

No euthanasia is not a option for my parents. If it comes to rehoming they will try and find a home with disclosure as to why they are rehoming failing that he will go back to the shelter. This is a last resort as they are committed to trying to fix the dog vs getting rid of him. They love him and he is otherwise perfect for them. He happy playful and they spoil him and he loves it.

We read enough to know Debarking doesn’t stop the barking or the “why” but they hope was to quite him enough that its not a problem for everyone around.As for the “why” he barks…I read people saying we need to fix that…Agreed. Someone mentioned the complications with debarking…I believe there are possible complication with anything we do. Spaying and neutering could have complications. I am looking for the “why is this cruel” I have yet to find a answer to how this is cruel? Its seems its option based. We though this was a better solution then being put to sleep or returned to the shelter where his fate is unknown. He is a healthy pretty happy young dog. This seemed a solution. However there is not any one or two triggers…it is everything and anything. He seems to just like to bark… He is healthy that was first thing addressed after this was beginning to be a issue.

Its been a year…10 months of trying to fix him with pro help… They are not giving up yet they will stick it out until they simply can’t. But there will be a time when they can’t continue.

Thank you for all the replies. And thank you to the ones who disagree for not being snarky I appreciate your replies as well.

[french_fry]

Can you simply ask the vet (or another vet you trust) why they think it’s cruel? I’m not a veterinary professional, but if my vet is telling me that something is cruel I’d assume there’s a medical reason.

[QUOTE=spook1;8546654]
Its been a year…10 months of trying to fix him with pro help… They are not giving up yet they will stick it out until they simply can’t. But there will be a time when they can’t continue. [/QUOTE]

Again, can you expand on “pro help”? What does the pro say? If they’ve been working with a trainer for a year, the trainer should at some point have given them a prognosis or goal to work towards. Have they met that goal? Is there progress at all, even if it’s small? Are they following the training program religiously? Are they adhering to all exercise/mental stimulation guidelines?

Finally, have they tried a day or two a week of doggie daycare? Some dogs just need time to be dogs and will relax fabulously after a whole day of romp/wrestle/bark/play.