Did you see my first post? I distinguished debarking from spaying/neutering and explained why debarking is cruel (nutshell- it’s a surgery with serious risks for that dog that has no benefits for the dog, it’s simply for owner convenience AND it makes the owner less attentive to the things that are actually bothering the dog).
Hi
The pro training besides the short Pet store Training was with two pro trainers. Each were 6 week courses. Of course there was marked improvement wit the dog. He is incredibly obedient now for sure. But as for the barking there has been very little improvement if any. I don’t have details as to what went on at this training but mom was giving instructions as to what to do when he barks. Spay bottle , can or coins, keys to “quite” time in the crete in a shut room. Various things. Again if we could find a trigger…say person walking to the street…ok well lets keep the front door shut. While that defeats the point as my mom is a avid walker and wants to be able to take dog on walks with her. But he barks at everything…playing with his toys he barks if you pick up a glass on coffee table …he barks…bugs…he barks and birds flying makes him nuts. I have never seen a dog that barks like this and I have had happy dogs all my life.
I was reading that spaying a dog has several extreme possible complications. So I respectfully disagree with your post and that. Everything we do is a risk. Taking your dog to a dog park is a risk. We were told its was cruel…again why? Because based on what I have found …yes on the internet…if giving that we are being cruel to spay dogs by that logic. Extreme example I know…just making a point.
So what I am getting from you is the dog should be taking back to the shelter where i am sure the next home will not spent the time or the money that has been put into this dog. Or maybe they should just put him to sleep? (not a option for them). What is your suggestion? We are willing to try. They DO NOT WANT TO GIVE DOG UP. So giving there is no real trigger point what would you suggest? I am not being snarky …Truley My mom is willing to try any suggestions. As a matter of fact when I told her I post the original question about the Cruelty of this…she wanted me to ask for suggestions.
Thank you
So there’s been no actual private training to specifically address solely the barking? Six week obedience courses are extremely unlikely to solve an issue like barking. They probably won’t even get to the cause of it.
Did the trainers recommend exercise? Puzzle feeders or other “brain games”? Did they give you any insight as to why they feel the dog is barking?
Even if the trainer didn’t specifically recommend more exercise or brain games, have they tried that? Have they tried hiring a dog walker? Have they tried teaching him to play fetch and wearing him out that way? Have they tried making him work for his food by using a puzzle feeder or throwing it down the stairs for him to chase kibble by kibble? Teaching him to play hide and seek with them or to sniff out hidden treats in the house? Taken him to an agility class?
Literally no one on this thread has told you to tell your parents to take the dog back to the shelter, and people are providing suggestions. I just suggested doggie daycare a post or two ago and it went ignored.
I feel like you’re reading only what you want to read and ignoring the rest?! Because you already have your mind made up?!
You’re missing the point about comparing this to other surgeries. Spaying/neutering or ANY surgery has risks. BUT these surgeries (especially spaying) have huge benefits FOR THE DOG. Much lower future risk of all sorts of cancer and other serious disease. Debarking has risks… and not a single benefit for the dog. That is the point. In the risk/benefit analysis… debarking is all risk for the dog, no benefit for the dog. Spaying is the opposite, the benefits for the dog well exceed the risks.
I think what you need to do is get an EXCELLENT trainer to come to the house and work with your parents and the dog privately for a significant period of time. This dog needs behavioral modification, not class obedience training. 6 weeks is not enough time to undo a well-learned behavior.
Hi
Yes this was private training. The puzzle feeders/toys are in use. While he does play with them …barking at them…being playful is as fun. Increased exercise of course however he gets plenty wether he likes it or not…lol my mom walks a stupid amount. As I said they suggested the spay bottle when he barks or can of coins, keys… things like that. The shock collars were fitted by the trainer and showed mom how they work. As was the spray collar by first trainer. Trying to expose him to more stuff…which is being done. They do go to a dog park so he gets off lead time but while he does run around and play …its the same…non stop barking…and you would think he would be tired from dog park and settle but thats not what happens. Now all Ive talked about was his negatives. The good is he is so happy…always seems to be smiling if you will. Is great with my parents and gentle. He is perfect on the walks and with obedience in general. Good on the house breaking. not dis structful. He ride perfectly in the car. And he is so pretty. He really only has one issue however thats a very bad one.
Oh yes they have trainer him get get the paper and carry into my dad. Its funny they paper is as big as he is and he is so proud when he is doing it …lol
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Yes I may be reading you wrong if I am Im sorry. We are frustrated with how to fix this before they have to give him up. The trainer was coming to the house doing in home stuff. However the other to were at a different location. I agree I was using the spay as a extreme example. I guess I see that the risk of debarking is worth it if it keeps a otherwise healthy happy dog out of a shelter or being PTS. And was not happy with the lack of education the vet office gave mom when she was told she was a cruel person to even think about doing that. I have thought about calling them and having the vet tell me how this is cruel. But nothing good would come of it. And I have not found anything on line that says its cruel per se…it has risks yes…as does anything we do to our pets. Its weighting the risk to benefit. I would have thought people would rather debark and keep in a good home vs being PTS or sent to shelter…I see I was wrong.
And really cause I believe my parents have done a lot by ay of time any money. More then I think the average pet person would be willing to give.
I just really find the “at least the dog isn’t rotting away in a shelter or dead” argument to be so thin.
Like, sure. I’m involved in rescue and have seen cats and dogs that have lived in a shelter for their entire 9 (or 15!) year lives. I’m the first to reassure potential adopters that working outside the home full time or crating a few hours a day isn’t a dealbreaker so long as they’re willing to spend a lot of their off-work hours exercising and engaging the dog.
But if we really are setting up the shelter or euthanasia as being the absolute worst options, then it justifies a whole range of horrific pet-owning behavior. Declawing? Sure. Debarking? Sure. Where should we go from there to further ensure that our pets act more like stuffed toys than the real-life animals they are, all in the name of keeping them out of the shelter?
If a veterinary behaviorist tells you that the dog is just a talker and that there’s no underlying anxiety, exercise deficit, whatever…I guess look into debarking.
If there is a serious underlying issue that is being masked by the dog not being able to vocalize, I’m not sure that the dog is actually any better off than he would be in a shelter or euthanized.
Hi
I am hearing the suggestions. However we have had trainers pro trainers two different ones. One came to the house once a week for 6 weeks. Theres is a limit on amount of money as of right 2000.00 has been spent trying to fix this. The idea of a dog walker wasn’t in the question as my mom walks about 5 miles a day…though out the day…like a two miles in the AM another mile at lunch and so on so I think he getting walked plenty though the whole day. They don’t have any stairs to throw toys or kibble down but they are using the puzzle feeders. I can’t say they use the hide and seek but I will suggest it to them. She did teach him to get the paper and bring it to my dad…he is so proud doing that…but tries to bark even with mouth full…lol Doggie day care I don’t think as come up but going to dog park has…so dad takes him there once a day because dad doesn’t get around well. So its a short walk here and dad can sit on bench. I suggested agility however probably not a good choice for older people.
I do appreciate all the replies and grateful none have been snarky. Just frustrated because most of the suggestions have been done over a period of 10 months. And I guess I wasn’t satisfied with how is it cruel.
I don’t think we are looking to have a stuffed toy pet. And the dog is healthy. My parents are not professional pet owners but have always had a Pom. Last one lived to be 21 yrs old…way past the point he should have been. And since they don’t work and mom is very active another pet was a good option since she walks so much. They have a nice home and really have more resources then most pet owners and are willing to spend money on whats needs. And so to the shelter they went…there he was…a beautiful 11/2 old POM (Ill bet my check thats why he was in the shelter to begin with)…its was love at first sight…and then they story goes on.
As I said just frustrated there will come a time that a hard choice has to be made and they are feeling pressure about the issue so really looking for a way to fix it without giving him up,
I totally get it. They were trying to do a good thing (both for the dog and themselves) and now they have a really frustrating situation that may have repercussions as far as them having to move. I’m not discounting the seriousness of the situation at all.
I will be honest, though, and say that even for a little dog like a Pom, walking a few miles a day on a leash with an older person may not be vigorous enough exercise to do much rather than amp him up.
The daily dog park routine is great, and I really think daycare might make a difference. It’s sometimes not enough to just hang out and sniff around - many dogs really need to run and chase and growl and wrestle. Mine comes back utterly exhausted and so blissed out from just being a DOG all day. It’s pricy, so I strategically use the daycare option on weeks when I know I’m going to have a super long workday or have an evening engagement so won’t have as much time to play with the dog, but a day or two a week makes a huge difference in a lot of dogs.
I would definitely also recommend something like fetch that requires bursts of energy - it’s going to tire him out way more than a walk.
Many years ago a friend of mine who lived in the city had one of her dogs debarked because a neighbor worked nights and complained that the one dog barked during the day when my friend was at work. Dog was fine. He sounded like he was hoarse. The other dogs did not bark during the day.
I lived in the city and kept my dogs inside my house during the day. Solved a lot of problems as I did not have to worry about them being stolen from my yard during the day when I was at work.
This is hard to hear, especially where people are well intentioned. But this might not be the right dog for your parents and vice versa. If they’re unwilling/unable to get ti the bottom of the issue, it is NOT cruel to rehome the dog to someone who can/will. I am not saying dump it without disclosure on the next sucker they find. I am saying reach out to pom rescue and see if they can help network for the dog. They also might have suggestions for behavioral work your parents can try since it’s not unusual for the breed to be barky.
I will also say that ambling at a nice walking pace is rarely adequate energy for all but the lowest energy dogs. Size isn’t the determination. Poms can be high energy. Your mom may think she’s walking the dog at lot but barely making a dent. Taking him to the dog park and letting him sniff around isn’t an energy user either. RUNNING the dog or BIKING or HIKING or similar is a start. Someone in my area is a dogwalker who will bike with your dog for exercise. If excess energy is the issue, something like that may help. Trust me, I have a high energy dog. When I first got her I walked her 2 hours a day. I quickly realized that for her that was NOTHING. Literally nothing. She can do 4 hours of vigorous playtime with her friend dog (serious running and wrestling), plus 2 hours of barn chores, plus walk, plus go to agility class and come home and not be tired. Walking in short bursts at an older person’s pace wouldn’t do a thing for her.
Risks of spaying are primarily risks of anesthesia, with more risks if the animal is not kept confined and quiet while healing.
Benefits: no ovarian cancer, no unwanted litters, no risk of pyometra, etc.
Risks of debarking: scar tissue formation causing exercise intolerance(no more dog parks or walks), aspiration pneumonia, narrowing of the airway, respiratory distress, collapse, heat intolerance, resumption of barking within months.
Benefits: makes people happy.
You really do not see the difference in the point of the surgeries? Also, the AVMA link I posted is the veterinary community’s position on doing it. Realistically it is hard to find a vet who will agree to do it.
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The dog was a shelter dog and Id bet money that that was why he was in the shelter to begin with. The barking is bad and its a shrilly loud bark. We are just worried that if we can’t get it under control they will had to give him up because at this point they simply cannot move. Someone mentioned the debarking and honestly seemed like a good idea assuming it wasn’t harmful and I have not found anything to say that it is harmful to the dog. So I was as surprised at the response from the vet office as my mom. It was harsh and uncalled for especially when it was a innocent inquiry. [/QUOTE]
In my experience the debarking procedure isn’t done by many vets; I don’t know if this is due to lack of demand, moral objection, or the procedure not being taught in vet school. Maybe a little of each reason?
Regardless, if they decide to debark, my recommendation is to find a sheltie breeder in your parents’ area and shoot them an email asking if they know of any vets who perform the procedure.
I do have two caveats… one, you have to keep the dog quiet for 2-3 weeks afterward to prevent scar tissue from building up (which can “undo” the procedure). For some dogs this can be a Hurculean task… this might be a good second question for a sheltie breeder. :yes:
My second caveat is that debarked dogs do still make some noise. Usually it’s hoarse and a much lower volume; still potentially irritating to owners, but not usually neighbors. Would this be sufficient for your parents?
Oh, and the two recently debarked Shelties that live behind me I can still hear when I’m in bed. I can’t hear them with ear plugs in anymore, but they’re really not that much quieter.
Not all trainers are worth their weight in gold. Shake cans/ spray bottles/ etc, are efforts to try to stop the symptoms of something (aka barking) but not the root cause.
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From the American Veterinary Medical Association:
Potential complications — Bleeding, acute airway swelling, infection, coughing, gagging and aspiration pneumonia can occur after vocal cord surgery. There is a substantial risk for development of scar tissue and glottis stenosis (narrowing of the throat) after laryngeal surgery.2,10,11,12,13 Clinical signs resulting from scar formation (laryngeal webbing) include exercise intolerance, dyspnea (respiratory distress), stridor (noisy breathing), collapse and heat intolerance;10 affected dogs require further surgical intervention to ameliorate the problem.
Resumption of a near normal bark can also occur within months.2
So, are your parents willing to trade barking for a dog who cannot be active with them anymore? It’s a “simple procedure” in that anybody can take a scalpel and hack out the vocal cords. But not so simple in the risks that go along with it. Plus, MOST vets will not agree to do it, and I am willing to bet that if I called around to find a vet here that would do it it’s not a vet I would trust with my animals. [/QUOTE]
The procedure absolutely does not involve “hacking out the vocal cords”. It involves removing a small amount of tissue from the side of the vocal cord, which affects the way air travels through the cord and how it vibrates. This reduces/softens the sound that comes out. It’s the same way a flag with a hole would catch less air.
I have NEVER heard of a debarked dog who “cannot be active” anymore; many many many Shelties are debarked and are very very successful agility/flyball/frisbee/herding dogs.
Link to AVMA here:
https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/LiteratureReviews/Documents/Backgrounder-Canine%20Devocalization-Final.pdf
This AVMA position clearly states that debarking is a viable option if the alternatives are euthanasia or surrender to a shelter, and if the owner has exhausted behavioral modification options.
These people got a dog who was most likely surrendered to the shelter because of a compulsive barking issue. These folks just won’t want to drive their neighbors crazy. “Debarking” the dog would have a 72 hour recovery time and would prevent literally a lifetime of this dog experiencing constant scolding, shock collars, ultrasonic bark deterrents devices; it would prevent 1.5+ decades of pissed off neighbors; plus it would eliminate what is currently an extreme daily frustration for the owners.
Some dogs love to bark and do it compulsively. I am all for a very minor surgical procedure that will allow them to express their feelings whenever they want, without being scolded or infuriating everyone within a 200’ radius.
I don’t know. The best way to explain it is, for some dogs barking is only a small step up from a tail wag. It’s an expression of happiness, interest, and enthusiasm. Imagine scolding your dog for wagging, shocking him for wagging, or your neighbors filing complaints with the police because he won’t stop wagging when he’s happy and excited. That’s what life with an exceptionally vocal dog is like; maybe not if you raise him from a puppy, because you would’ve taught him manners… but an exceptionally vocal dog with ingrained barking habits from prior to being adopted as an adult.
I think that’s the best way I can explain it.
A pom is a small dog. You may end up with a dog that sounds like a squeeky toy after being debarked. Much more annoying than regular barking, let me tell you. I’ve met a yorkie and a small mixed breed who were debarked. Both were high pitched, terrible sounding dogs. Listening to it constantly made you want to strangle them.
Have you tried The Sonic Egg made by Sunbeam?
