Question about DEBARKING.

[Sswor]

[QUOTE=Lazy Palomino Hunter;8547698]

Some dogs love to bark and do it compulsively. I am all for a very minor surgical procedure that will allow them to express their feelings whenever they want, without being scolded or infuriating everyone within a 200’ radius.

I don’t know. The best way to explain it is, for some dogs barking is only a small step up from a tail wag. It’s an expression of happiness, interest, and enthusiasm. Imagine scolding your dog for wagging, shocking him for wagging, or your neighbors filing complaints with the police because he won’t stop wagging when he’s happy and excited. That’s what life with an exceptionally vocal dog is like; maybe not if you raise him from a puppy, because you would’ve taught him manners… but an exceptionally vocal dog with ingrained barking habits from prior to being adopted as an adult.

I think that’s the best way I can explain it.[/QUOTE]

Gotta agree with that. Imagine trying to train a dog not to wag it’s tail.

[vxf111]

So cut the tail off?!

[Bicoastal]

[QUOTE=Lazy Palomino Hunter;8547698]
The best way to explain it is, for some dogs barking is only a small step up from a tail wag. It’s an expression of happiness, interest, and enthusiasm. Imagine scolding your dog for wagging, shocking him for wagging, or your neighbors filing complaints with the police because he won’t stop wagging when he’s happy and excited. That’s what life with an exceptionally vocal dog is like;[/QUOTE]

Oh my gosh this is perfect. I just adopted one of these a few months ago. This is him. He has a whole range of vocalizations and uses them if he’s happy, sad, frustrated, bored, confused, excited, etc. Basically, if he’s awake he’s making noise :lol:. And for him, it is as innate as moving his tail and pricking his ears.

[S1969]

Honestly, I think in a situation like this, debarking is a reasonable thing to consider. Rehoming the dog may not change anything; exercise may not change anything; and the dog would be in danger of being abandoned to a shelter or euthanized.

No one supports an across the board application of debarking instead of training or additional stimulation, but dogs like this do exist. I agree that the owners would have to determine whether they would be ok with the softer “bark” because it would not be silent. The ones that I have heard are not loud, but might still be annoying. Still…it is not as piercing as barking. Obviously it would still be important to consider additional training and/or stimulation to see if it would change the behavior as well.

[vxf111]

I don’t see that euthanasia/abandonment are even on the table in this case. So let’s not claim that they are. Let’s call a spade a spade. Worst case scenario, it sounds like these people are willing to rehome the dog with disclosure. Presenting euthanasia as an option is a false negative. It’s not going to happen here.

There may be extreme cases where this IS the best/only option but I don’t see that to be the case here. The owners have done a couple pet store obedience classes and had a (seemingly ineffective) trainer come to the home a handful of times. The dog gets walked some and played with. They bought some books and training collars. That’s about it. I don’t see that AT ALL as a really exhaustive effort to try to resolve the issue non-surgically. I don’t see any environmental changes, any behavior modification (of an effective sort anyway), any effort to significantly up the exercise. Doggy daycare seems to be too much effort. It really strikes me that MINIMAL effort has been done to get to the root of the problem (has the VET even been consulted?) It’s just “what’s the easy way out since we tried a couple things and spent some money and now we’re done.” Well, honestly, rehoming probably makes sense. It’s not what OP wants to hear, but I think it’s a better option.

I personally think it’s a little early to throw in the towel on behavior modification/changing the environment. Especially with serious risks and the fact that there may be some underlying issue that CAN be fixed (or will be as bad/worse once debarked). But other people’s mileage may vary. I do not see this as an “exhausted every option” it’s this or death situation. Not by a longshot. Not based on what the OP posted. It sounds like a dog that needs a more active environment with different owners. And that OP’s parents would be better suited for a different dog. That happens.

[Incantation]

I feel for your parents. I only know of a couple of dogs that were debarked. Their barks sounded terrible after, like fingernails on a blackboard.

I don’t think regular obedience training is going to fix this issue no matter how good the trainer is. See if they are open to consulting with an actual behaviorist. That is their best shot at getting solution to the actual problem (even if it is just exuberance, they can likely help your parents teach the dog some self restraint!) .

Other suggestions would be, as others have started, more mental and physical work. Do your parents own a treadmill? Can they build a little fitness course (cavaletti/backing/paws up on an object etc)? These can be good ways to get some added exercise, and since they have to focus on where their paws are, it tires them some mentally too.

[NCRider]

[QUOTE=Incantation;8548749]
I feel for your parents. I only know of a couple of dogs that were debarked. Their barks sounded terrible after, like fingernails on a blackboard.

I don’t think regular obedience training is going to fix this issue no matter how good the trainer is. See if they are open to consulting with an actual behaviorist. That is their best shot at getting solution to the actual problem (even if it is just exuberance, they can likely help your parents teach the dog some self restraint!) .

Other suggestions would be, as others have started, more mental and physical work. Do your parents own a treadmill? Can they build a little fitness course (cavaletti/backing/paws up on an object etc)? These can be good ways to get some added exercise, and since they have to focus on where their paws are, it tires them some mentally too.[/QUOTE]

Do you people read? The OP clearly stated that her parents hired a trainer to come to the home specifically to deal with these issues.
OP, I know a debarked small dog who lives in a city apartment. He has no exercise restrictions at all as far as I know. His “bark” is annoying but is significantly less loud or booming than it was before the procedure. It sounds like your parents have done all that is reasonably possible under the circumstances. Any new home is going to face the same issues unless they have no neighbors. Absent rehoming to a situation with no neighbors, I’d do the procedure. I would not rehome to anyone with neighbors because as you have seen on this thread, a lot of people are dog experts and will assume they can fix this issue because of course your parents must be incompetent shut ins who hired incompetent trainers. When they find out they are wrong, and their neighbors complain, they’ll rehome the dog or drop it at a shelter.

[vxf111]

The OP’s writing is hardly a model of clarity but I understand that the trainer did 6 home visits. Not even a drop in the bucket for what it can take to change behavior.

Another thing that hasn’t been tried is socializing the dog/multiple dog home

[NCRider]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8548837]
The OP’s writing is hardly a model of clarity but I understand that the trainer did 6 home visits. Not even a drop in the bucket for what it can take to change behavior.

Another thing that hasn’t been tried is socializing the dog/multiple dog home[/QUOTE]

6 home visits spaced a week apart, reinforced by working diligently on the issues per trainer instructions beforehand and afterwards, times 2 trainers, over the course of 10 months is more than reasonable to expect of any pet owner. I would even call it above and beyond. Sometimes I think some of you like to be difficult and judgmental on purpose.
OP, ignore vf11, her advice stinks.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8548837]
The OP’s writing is hardly a model of clarity but I understand that the trainer did 6 home visits. Not even a drop in the bucket for what it can take to change behavior.

Another thing that hasn’t been tried is socializing the dog/multiple dog home[/QUOTE]

How would multiple dogs help a chronic, OCD barker?

They may end with two over the top barking dogs.
That is an elderly couple that were at their max with one dog to care for.

[Incantation]

[QUOTE=NCRider;8548818]
The OP clearly stated that her parents hired a trainer to come to the home specifically to deal with these issues. [/QUOTE]

Yes a trainer - not a behaviorist. There is a difference. If they are willing, a behaviorist may be able to help.

[spook1]

Hi All

VxF your way off. While I appreciate your comments you missed it.

A quick recap…when they first got the dog…went to a pet chain store for the 6 week class. The barking was not addressed at that time because they just got him and figured he would adjust in time. Two months later the barking is bad…purcheased books int to vet checked dog for issues and get suggestions. Vet says there are collars that can be used and the normal puzzle toys…This has no effect. First trainer is obtained for a 6 week term for the barking issue not for odience. Very little effect and at home there was no change while mom did learn some good tactics and general knowledge . She and my dad work on what they learn from trainer 1. as time goes on things are not improving and staring to get some nastygram home others. Since it was thought that he needs in home training since thats while he lives was needed. Trainer 2 comes in…6 weeks in home training…My mom is type A personality …there is a list of do’s and don’t on the fridge for them to follow. All this over about a 10 month period.

They are willing put effort and money into this lil guy and they have. Euthanasia is NOT a option. So that doesn’t need to enter the conversation. However rehoming or the shelter maybe only because they can’t move. The fear is if rehomed that the next family will not be as willing to try and the lil guy ends in a bad spot where he not loved and still abandoned for this issue. Again I think this is why he was there the place.

Dark Palomino and Other has been right on target!
Thanks for all the replies

[S1969]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8548047]
I personally think it’s a little early to throw in the towel on behavior modification/changing the environment. Especially with serious risks and the fact that there may be some underlying issue that CAN be fixed (or will be as bad/worse once debarked). But other people’s mileage may vary. I do not see this as an “exhausted every option” it’s this or death situation. Not by a longshot. Not based on what the OP posted. It sounds like a dog that needs a more active environment with different owners. And that OP’s parents would be better suited for a different dog. That happens.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think they need to throw in the towel; but I think getting some info on debarking as an option at this point is not unreasonable. I’m not sure how long one can be expected to live with a dog that barks non-stop? Especially if typical aids like bark collars have been unsuccessful, and trainers have not helped. I know of some very barky agility dogs that bark throughout their entire run out of excitement/happiness - so more active exercise isn’t necessarily a solution.

It’s not like they would do it at home with a kitchen knife. It would never be my first choice, but I don’t really see debarking as a surgery with serious risks any more than other surgeries…if anesthesia is considered the major risk.

I’m not really sure why you’re so against it in this circumstance; I agree that it should not be the first step to consider instead of training. But rehoming a dog because it barks constantly? That’s not necessarily a very attractive option either. Who would want it? And would it actually be better off?

[vxf111]

OP, it’s really hard to read some of your posts due to the grammar, style, and punctuation.

If all you want is people to agree with you, please make that clear from your first post. You really seem to hear only what you want to hear. Not likely helpful in the grand scheme of things.

I do not think your parents have exhausted all reasonable options. If they feel comfortable putting their dog at risk for their own happiness having not exhausted all the options-- that’s their call. They have to live with the decisions they make. Not me.

S1969. My real problem here is that we don’t know whether the problem will go away with something as simple as the dog NOT being the only dog. If all this dog needs is a companion and it’s no longer barking-- rehoming a cute, healthy pure breed like this should be a SNAP. And OP’s parents can find another pom that better suits their lifestyle. What if all this dog needs is a half day of doggy daycare 3 times a week? What if all it needs is to run offleash for an hour? I don’t think we can assume this is an intractable problem-- the OP’s parents have tried almost nothing (2 trainers, each which lasted only 6 weeks, puzzle toys, and walking-- hardly exhausting all the options) I just don’t think there has really been a significant effort to explore all the options. They bought some books, they did some classes, and 6 times a trainer came to their home. And now they’re throwing in the towel. Irresponsible, IMHO.

I might feel different if they had really tried everything… but come on… these people aren’t even willing to try ONE day of doggy daycare (per the OP anyway) see if it makes a difference. That’s hardly someone who has tried everything.

I know a dog that had breathing complications post-surgery and it had a SIGNIFICANT detrimental effect on that dog and absolutely shortened its life expectancy. It eventually died from breathing issues and the last 2-3 years could not exercise/live like a normal dog due to the breathing problems. I would NEVER do that to a dog unless I had no other options. It literally took years off that life and made the remaining ones much less comfortable. I don’t find the risks minimal. And this was a successful debarking with no immediate side effects post-surgery. The problems occurred down the line.

And the dog still barked. It just sounded hoarse.

[Trakehner]

It’s not evil, destructive nor does it have a lot of side effects.

It can be the difference of being able to keep a dog and having to give it up.

It’s a quick general anesthetic, grab the tongue with a 4x4 gauze and you use a uterine biopsy punch (which cuts a triangular hole) to cut the vocal chords. You can use an electro-cautery, but you don’t need it. The next morning you listen to hear the very light hoarse barks or real woofs.

Yes, I had dogs who had ears trimmed and tails docked and were spayed/neutered. Also, cats declawed in front (100% indoor cats and lots less destruction).

It’s a common surgery in facilities where dogs are kept in kennels.

Yep, you’ll always hear from people about how evil it is to do lots of stuff to your animal.

[Lord_Helpus]

I do not believe it is at all cruel. Lots of minor surgeries are performed daily that we have no visceral response to (castration, spaying). And others which for eons were considered normal (docking tails, trimming ears). I do not understand why cutting a small hole in the vocal chords is a bad thing.

My wonderful horse had a paralyzed flap. He had tieback surgery which failed, so he had laser surgery. Well, he was ‘de-whinnied’ and now when he whinnies he goes he-he-he-he. He has no idea he is different, although it cracks the rest of us up.

Again, it cannot understand the prejudice against the surgery. In our modern world, sometimes minor adjustments can make the difference between having a loving and loved pet, to not having a pet at all. Both owner and dog are worse off if they cannot find a way to make things work.

[spook1]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8549273]
OP, it’s really hard to read some of your posts due to the grammar, style, and punctuation.

If all you want is people to agree with you, please make that clear from your first post. You really seem to hear only what you want to hear. Not likely helpful in the grand scheme of things.

I do not think your parents have exhausted all reasonable options. If they feel comfortable putting their dog at risk for their own happiness having not exhausted all the options-- that’s their call. They have to live with the decisions they make. Not me.

S1969. My real problem here is that we don’t know whether the problem will go away with something as simple as the dog NOT being the only dog. If all this dog needs is a companion and it’s no longer barking-- rehoming a cute, healthy pure breed like this should be a SNAP. And OP’s parents can find another pom that better suits their lifestyle. What if all this dog needs is a half day of doggy daycare 3 times a week? What if all it needs is to run offleash for an hour? I don’t think we can assume this is an intractable problem-- the OP’s parents have tried almost nothing (2 trainers, each which lasted only 6 weeks, puzzle toys, and walking-- hardly exhausting all the options) I just don’t think there has really been a significant effort to explore all the options. They bought some books, they did some classes, and 6 times a trainer came to their home. And now they’re throwing in the towel. Irresponsible, IMHO.

I might feel different if they had really tried everything… but come on… these people aren’t even willing to try ONE day of doggy daycare (per the OP anyway) see if it makes a difference. That’s hardly someone who has tried everything.

I know a dog that had breathing complications post-surgery and it had a SIGNIFICANT detrimental effect on that dog and absolutely shortened its life expectancy. It eventually died from breathing issues and the last 2-3 years could not exercise/live like a normal dog due to the breathing problems. I would NEVER do that to a dog unless I had no other options. It literally took years off that life and made the remaining ones much less comfortable. I don’t find the risks minimal. And this was a successful debarking with no immediate side effects post-surgery. The problems occurred down the line.

And the dog still barked. It just sounded hoarse.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry my grammar is not well enough for you. Right now I am working 12 rotating shifts (16 hours last shift) and in school full time. So grammar isn’t high on my lists of worry.

What other options are you suggesting? How much time is enough time to try? How much money is a reasonable amount to spend? At what point do you say…send him back to shelter? When would you say this surgery is a viable option? Or is it best they send him back? Is that better for the dog?

No. I don’t want people to just agree and I even appreciate your comments …mostly. I don’t like you believe after 10 months of trying to deal with the barking issue alone and spending well over 2k on this issue that they are not doing enough. In the world I live in most people do not have 2 k to spend on a issue like this nor would they put the time my parents have put into the lil guy. When yes it would be much easier and cheaper and less taxing to send him back to the shelter because of this issue and get another dog. But the fact is…they simply love they lil guy. So honestly its not a money or even a effort issue…its a living situational issue that can not be changed.They would spend more if they could find someone who could identify the trigger for this but so far they haven’t not been able to. Someone posted the example of tail wagging… this was perfect. He barks like wagging his tail.

My OP it was kinda vent and I wanted to know where the cruelty in this procedure was.
From what we read its understood it won’t fix him or stop them…it was more to quite the barking so that it wasn’t a issue that could force them to give the dog up.

Thanks.

[dog_amp_horsemom]

I didn’t read the original post so I will comment based on your parents have a dog that barks alot…I rescued a dog that was debarked - and clearly he was a chronic barker so I can understand why they did it - but the sound he made when I got him - a hoarse , annoying sound - it was VERY annoying. Of course, I have neighbors who have dogs that bark and I WISH they would debark their dogs!! Having said That - my dogs Never bark - they get alot of controlled exercise - I am a strict owner - and they respect me. I am positive - that if that dog was mine - it would NOT be a chronic barker. IMO dogs that are chronic barkers are stressed or have some type of anxiety and need re-direction - they need help. So - the debarking will create a noise that will probably annoy the h*ll out of you - you will literally hear it in your sleep! I have a saying - don’t let your dog practice anything you don’t want them to get real good at - otherwise you have a bad habit - sounds like you have one now. Maybe you can find a kid to take it on a jogging walk and tire it out so it will be more relaxed…

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=dog&horsemom;8549447]
I didn’t read the original post so I will comment based on your parents have a dog that barks alot…I rescued a dog that was debarked - and clearly he was a chronic barker so I can understand why they did it - but the sound he made when I got him - a hoarse , annoying sound - it was VERY annoying. Of course, I have neighbors who have dogs that bark and I WISH they would debark their dogs!! Having said That - my dogs Never bark - they get alot of controlled exercise - I am a strict owner - and they respect me. I am positive - that if that dog was mine - it would NOT be a chronic barker. IMO dogs that are chronic barkers are stressed or have some type of anxiety and need re-direction - they need help. So - the debarking will create a noise that will probably annoy the h*ll out of you - you will literally hear it in your sleep! I have a saying - don’t let your dog practice anything you don’t want them to get real good at - otherwise you have a bad habit - sounds like you have one now. Maybe you can find a kid to take it on a jogging walk and tire it out so it will be more relaxed…[/QUOTE]

Maybe you ought to read the whole thread before adding to the pile on of those that have to give their opinion, fine that, but then keep repeating it again and again and again.
Not that you did that, I don’t know, but others just seem not to be able to just let it go, once they had their say.

The OP’s parents are in a tight spot, losing their home or rehoming the dog and were asking about debarking.

Now they know what so many others think and why, some that think it is terrible, some that think there is a time where terrible may not be so terrible, considering the situation.

Now it is to the OP’s parents to decide how to proceed, it is their dog, their decision, whatever way that decision falls, if others like it or not.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8549273]
S1969. My real problem here is that we don’t know whether the problem will go away with something as simple as the dog NOT being the only dog. If all this dog needs is a companion and it’s no longer barking-- rehoming a cute, healthy pure breed like this should be a SNAP. And OP’s parents can find another pom that better suits their lifestyle. What if all this dog needs is a half day of doggy daycare 3 times a week? What if all it needs is to run offleash for an hour? I don’t think we can assume this is an intractable problem-- the OP’s parents have tried almost nothing (2 trainers, each which lasted only 6 weeks, puzzle toys, and walking-- hardly exhausting all the options) I just don’t think there has really been a significant effort to explore all the options. They bought some books, they did some classes, and 6 times a trainer came to their home. And now they’re throwing in the towel. Irresponsible, IMHO.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know; I think they have tried reasonable options that have not worked so far, and looking at debarking as another option is not throwing in the towel.

I don’t think “trying” to see if the dog wants a companion or rehoming a chronic barking are reasonable options for most people. Getting a 2nd dog is not a simple prospect - what if it, too, is a constant barker? Then you have twice the misery instead of a solution. Rehoming after 10 months? No, I totally disagree. Debarking is not a worse situation.

It is true that the debarked dog is not necessarily going to be easy to live with either. But the fact that there could be a risk of the surgery being botched isn’t really a good reason to not do it. We’ve heard on this board about two post-spaying infections as well, but we’d never tell people not to spay their bitches because of the risk of infection or a mistake. All surgeries have risks - which is why you go to a surgeon that knows what they are doing. But most of them do not result in problems.