Racing at the County Fair vs racing at 'regular' tracks

[gumtree]

As NancyM touched on.

Most “Fair Meets” if not all that are not sanctioned, licensed by the state for legal betting and have no little to no State oversight, no racing commission involvement. They are considered by the State as exhibition races. With very little prize money offered. There might be a cap on how much prize money can be offered depending on the state.

This type of racing, flat or harness at Country Fairs goes back a LONG way in this country.

With very little oversight brings a “no holds bared” way of racing. There is not drug testing, jocks can get away with rough riding styles etc.

Just because betting is not legal doesn’t mean there isn’t a heck of a lot of betting going on. This is were the “prize money” comes from.

“When I bought her, I was told 'the owners who run county fairs are a whole ‘nother breed of horse owner’ - and this was not said in a positive manner”

I can see why this was said. Owner/trainers who run horses at “country meets” can have a totally different mentality. In places, esp out west most “racing circuits” are just that Fair Meet, but a lot of clandestine meets also. With no drug testing, little to no oversight by the meet organizers some horses can and do get pretty beat up.

When it comes to horses being clipped, Well, I have bred and raised quite a few. The vast majority are not easy to clip at first, second, even third asking. It’s the horse’s natural, build in fright flight instincts. The sound of the clippers may sound like a rattle snake to them or some other predator sound they are preprogrammed to run from. Humans are born with fear of the dark, things that go bump in the night. It was my, and others of like job to teach them, acclimate them to the basics of human interaction and domestication. I sure wish they came out of their mamma’s ready to throw a saddle on and ride off into the sunset.

As to “buzzers”, “machines” aka “battery” and a horse associating this with the sound of clippers, IMO this is a stretch

A lot of horses are more reactive to sounds then others. The “force” is strong with them. I would not automatically assume something was “done” to them.

The name “buzzer” I assume comes from how they were originally made. The sound made by the electricity arching. Not much different than the sound a spark plug makes when being tested. Probably where the idea came from? From what I was told back in the day, if the jock wasn’t real good with it. They would shock themselves.

I assume the name “machine” comes from a loose translation from Spanish to English. A lot of the Spanish speaking guys working for me called a lot of things “the machine” for lack of knowing the exact name in English.

[gumtree]

@Palm Beach

IDK - people do come out of the woodwork to run at Timonium (MD State Fair) and many of them train off the farm. There is no training at Timonium, they all ship in to run. I imagine the horses running at county fairs are not well bred and not very fast, hence the county fair.

I had to train my non-tb riding horses to allow me to clip them and their heads, most horses are suspicious of clippers. I don’t think you can blame her unknown former owners or handlers. Most race horses get sedated to get clipped, and few of them get their heads trimmed with clippers routinely. I would not conclude that someone lit her up just because she is afraid of clippers.

“people do come out of the woodwork to run at Timonium (MD State Fair) and many of them train off the farm. There is no training at Timonium, they all ship in to run”

This isn’t exactly true. I grew up in the Timonium area. I haven been to the race meet in a few years now. Horse are stabled and trained there during the meet. When the meet ends there is no training all have to ship back to tracks, etc.

The Timonium meet used to be LOT longer. It started before and ended long after the State Fair. Outfits could ship in before racing started to train there. I spent many happy carefree days there as a kid in the 60s and early 70s hanging out working form my mother and stepfather’s racing stable. Hang out with the “riff-raft” old school racing characters at the Fair Grounds Inn after morning training hours. It now Michael’s but it used to be a racetracker bar and grill.

Timonium Fair Grounds meet never fell under my idea, definition of a “Fair Meet”. Maybe back when it was first started in the 1870s? But it has been part of the Maryland Jockey Club for a long time. It was and still is in a very limited way a swing meet. Pimlico, Laurel. In the past Bowie, Havre de Grace, Bel Air. Maryland is the first state in the Union to formalize racing. The oldest Jockey Club in the nation. I like to remind my KY friends that we were breeding and racing horses when KY was still pretty much a wilderness.

This is a picture of my mother, my stepfather)hold the racing form) both licensed trainers for many years before this picture was taken. My sister at the horses head. She started galloping at the race track in the late 60s. A number of other family friends enjoying the win. This was taken in mid September 1971. Fair was long over. The meet would end not long after.

The Maryland Yearling sale would fill the barns a couple of week later. Spent many years working that sale too.
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[poltroon]

For OP’s horse, clicker training is the best method I know of for correcting an extreme fear response like that, regardless of the source. A clicker affects the neurology right in the amygdala and is impacting the same kind of brain response as touching a hot stove that results in very fast, very deep learning. The clicker makes it easier to reassociate that sound with happy events.

[Palm_Beach]

@poltroon

For OP’s horse, clicker training is the best method I know of for correcting an extreme fear response like that, regardless of the source. A clicker affects the neurology right in the amygdala and is impacting the same kind of brain response as touching a hot stove that results in very fast, very deep learning. The clicker makes it easier to reassociate that sound with happy events.

How does that work? I don’t clicker train, but understand using the clicker to reward and shape correct behavior. It never occurred to me to use it to correct (fix? intercept?) an extreme fear response.

[Obsidian_Fire]

@Palm Beach

How does that work? I don’t clicker train, but understand using the clicker to reward and shape correct behavior. It never occurred to me to use it to correct (fix? intercept?) an extreme fear response.

In a basic sense, it uses one sound to replace another in the neural pathways of the brain. So, it retrains the brain’s neurons to associate the sound (clippers) with something positive (the clicker noise = reward/pleasure).

[gumtree]

@Obsidian Fire

In a basic sense, it uses one sound to replace another in the neural pathways of the brain. So, it retrains the brain’s neurons to associate the sound (clippers) with something positive (the clicker noise = reward/pleasure).

This is not exactly the take away I get from the various articles I have read on it in recent years. IMO it has limited value when it comes to horses. The science, the research, limited research does not exactly give “clicker training” it’s seal of approval. Esp when it comes to horses. Can a horse be “trained” this way. I suppose so, but I don’t see the necessity. I have worked with lots of horses on my farm, easy one to difficult ones. I have never had “difficult” ones take a lot of time and effort to over come their quirks by using tried and true horsemanship. No snark intended but just having worked with, around horses for any length of time does not make a person a truly good, gifted horsemen. IMO it is not easy to teach, put into words, etc. IMO it is more intuitive. Coming from years of working with LOTS of different horses on any given day, year. Esp young horses, from birth to under saddle.

To each their own on this.

This is a research article for Peer review published 9/18.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6151118/

It touches on horses under The Effectiveness of Using a Clicker during Animal Training

This is the bottom line.

Conclusion

[I]Clicker training is widely recommended and used, but rarely studied empirically. Some proponents of clicker training state the methods are grounded in peer reviewed research (Pryor, 2009). Recently Feng, Howell & Bennett (2016) concluded that, based on their brief review of the basic research, the clicker: “most likely function[s] in a reinforcing capacity, provided they are first paired with an unconditioned reinforcer to the extent required to imbue them with reinforcing capabilities, and provided this ‘charge’ is maintained so that the reinforcing properties are not extinguished. Less certain is whether they also have bridging and marking capabilities” (pg. 38).

The research Feng, Howell & Bennett (2016) used for comparison inadequately described the state of research relative to clicker training for several reasons. First, the research cited by Feng, Howell & Bennett (2016) came from highly controlled laboratory contexts with procedures that allow for explicit testing of the stimulus function. This contrasts with the highly complex and nuanced applied training contexts in which clickers are used. Second, the empirical research cited by Feng and colleagues disallows statements about clickers functionally serving as a marker or bridge stimulus. Finally, the basic research and applied research cited by Feng, Howell & Bennett (2016) led them to conclude that the clicker functions as a conditioned reinforcer even though the necessary research to demonstrate the conditioned reinforcing properties of the clicker has not been conducted.

Basic and applied research on clicker training is needed across several domains. Basic research is needed to establish the contexts in which clicker training as a package, and the click as a component, improves animal training outcomes and maintenance in a controlled environment. This research has not been done. Basic researchers could also investigate how the delay to food delivery that is common in training contexts impacts the function of the click. Investigations into the delay between the behavior and click as well as between the click and the food would be tremendously valuable for animal trainers. Basic and applied research on clicker training would improve current animal training methods and the overall welfare of these animals. However, for useful interchange to occur between researchers and clicker trainers, it is necessary both groups are aware of the differences in how terms for describing the clicker training process are used. We hope this paper is a first step toward greater collaboration and opens the door to the vast amount of research needed in this area.[/I]

[merrygoround]

I had a horse who actually enjoyed being clipped. I had him in crossties outside Little Miss Terrified’s stall, We were in a small enclosed area. After a couple of sessions, I turned LMT loose while clipping. Her nose was right there. She decided that she wanted part of the good times.

I’ve found that that works with many things from clippers to cows.

Not sure what this has to do, with non sanctioned racing, which has to my knowledge, always been rough around the edges, no matter what breed.

As far as proprieties go racing has come a long way, but the cops will always be playing catch up.

[Obsidian_Fire]

@gumtree

This is not exactly the take away I get from the various articles I have read on it in recent years. IMO it has limited value when it comes to horses. The science, the research, limited research does not exactly give “clicker training” it’s seal of approval. Esp when it comes to horses. Can a horse be “trained” this way. I suppose so, but I don’t see the necessity. I have worked with lots of horses on my farm, easy one to difficult ones. I have never had “difficult” ones take a lot of time and effort to over come their quirks by using tried and true horsemanship. No snark intended but just having worked with, around horses for any length of time does not make a person a truly good, gifted horsemen. IMO it is not easy to teach, put into words, etc. IMO it is more intuitive. Coming from years of working with LOTS of different horses on any given day, year. Esp young horses, from birth to under saddle.

To each their own on this.

I’m with you on this. I have never used clicker training, only read about it, here n there. Some people swear by it, but I think developing your timing and feel is 10,000% more important.

[Palm_Beach]

@Obsidian Fire

I’m with you on this. I have never used clicker training, only read about it, here n there. Some people swear by it, but I think developing your timing and feel is 10,000% more important.

Exactly.

[Scribbler]

@Obsidian Fire

I’m with you on this. I have never used clicker training, only read about it, here n there. Some people swear by it, but I think developing your timing and feel is 10,000% more important.

Well, clicker training requires very good timing and feel. I stumbled into it with my mare and she turns out to be a really smart trick horse. I watch friends struggle to teach anything by clicker and am never sure if their horses just aren’t food motivated or the humans just don’t have great timing, or both.

My grouchy girthy mare now sometimes gives a happy nicker when I do up her girth because treats!

But my experience is that clicks and treats fail to get horses attention when they are truly aroused, including panicking.

[On_the_Farm]

Horses can be quite adept at clicker training. If one is laid up on stall rest due to injury, all it has to do is whinny out loud one time and everyone will come running to see what’s wrong.

[2DogsFarm]

@On the Farm

Horses can be quite adept at clicker training. If one is laid up on stall rest due to injury, all it has to do is whinny out loud one time and everyone will come running to see what’s wrong.

:lol:
Or would that be NICKER TRAINING?

[Obsidian_Fire]

@2DogsFarm

:lol:
Or would that be NICKER TRAINING?

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: