Raising the Qualifying Score to Ride a Freestyle to 63...what say you?

[SaddleFitterVA]

@Sticky Situation

Regarding “score inflation” … wasn’t the descriptor for a 5 changed somewhere along the lines from “sufficient” (which is what I remember it being when I showed as a kid) to “marginal”? I think the connotation is a bit different… “sufficient” sounds as though it is “good enough,” if just barely, whereas “marginal” sounds as though it really doesn’t quite meet the standard.

Although, even when I was competing as a kid, 60% or higher seemed to be what to shoot for to know that you’re on the right track.

Only for USEF, from the 2018 FEI Dressage rule book

The scale of marks is as follows:
0 Not executed
1 Very bad
2 Bad
3 Fairly bad
4 Insufficient
5 Sufficient
6 Satisfactory
7 Fairly good
8 Good
9 Very good
10 Excellent
All Half marks from 0.5-9.5 may also be used both for movements and the collective mark, at the discretion of the judge.

Because Sufficient was not sufficiently negative or punitive enough for the “we only want HIGH scoring horses and riders to grace our dressage rings” crowd. USEF/USDF had to make that Marginal.

[purplnurpl]

So back to the original topic.
i have been able to score 63% or higher with several sub par marks and mistakes in my 1-3 test. If fact, I even got lost one time after a loss of gait. That test still scored a 63%.

But that was 1st level. Does it become harder to score well as you move up the levels?
If the USDF wants to add an inclision score, why not use the score that is needed tovQR for Regionals?

1st level AA is a 62%. So 1 score at a 62% gives you the opportunity to also compete a FS?

Also, I think more and more folks are paying and putting together FS with professionals. I had a LunaTunes help ne with mine. I could not have meshed my choosen musics like she did. I’m super happy with my FS and it makes me feel important. Lol.

I have a friend who does really well buying premade FS and then editing them herself. I can’t do that though because I’m cray and very particular. I had my FS done to the music of my most favorite movie in the whole wide world. It makes ne so happy. I have a hard time not bobbing my head back and forth in my trot work. And at my last halt…I laugh my rear off because Ive had such a great time.

But I guess I’m bad about doing that in every ride because every time I sit on my lil homebred I feel so inctredibly blessed.

[Belowthesalt]

Oh, geez, Here we go again. Qualifying scores. Why? For freestyles or otherwise. Those who are on an National Championships/FEI track are going to get there whether or not qualifying scores at lower levels or for freestyles are required. WHO CARES if someone with a pony-gaited horse of undistinguished breeding potters around at TL or 1st level and gets high 50s/low 60s scores (or worse), but wants to have the fun of doing a home-made freestyle. Who does it hurt? Who is at local recognized shows except exhibitors/helpers/family? If they enjoy themselves, more power to them
.
Implement qualifying scores and watch people flock to the schooling shows and away from recognized shows. Then where are the $$$$ going to come from to support those recognized shows if they loose the lower level riders that basically “pay the bills.” I haven’t shown in three years due to my horse’s injury. I’m beginning to feel relieved about it. I don’t have to put up with the condescension of TPTB. I have the scores to do a freestyle up to 2nd level if I want, with enough scores at 63% (I think - haven’t looked at my old tests for a while. I know there are a couple of 65% in there, but not sure if they’re at Test 3 of the level).

If your* dressage feelings are hurt by having to watch the less than perfect fumble around at the lower levels, then don’t watch. Even if they are really bad (as long as it’s not abusive) and are too dense to realize it, they’re probably still enjoying the experience and their entry fees keep the shows going. If they don’t care, why should you? If they are in the moderate to good range (I guess that’s where I might classify myself), well, my $$$ are as good as anyone else’s. If I want to do a freestyle, why should I have to “prove” anything beyond the fact that I have a horse and the entry fee to compete. Are ONLY those who are trying for the FEI levels to be permitted to show?

Qualifying scores for championship? Absolutely, But for run of the mill local recognized show? unnecessary and punitive.

RANT OVER. Sigh.

*all references to “you” and “your” being generic, of course.

[TMares]

@atlatl

No, actually @alibi_18 did not say that. What alibi did say was in fact the opposite, that it was not only OK, but actually recommended in her opinion to ride freestyles a level below that which one regularly shows. Alibi also gave you credit for improving your training.

Sheesh! :rolleyes:

concur

[Belowthesalt]

@Cowgirl

It was on Facebook by one of the key judges leading this crusade. The person also said: “63 is the new 55”. I understood that to mean that today’s 63% is the same ride that would have scored 55% way back when that was the qualifying score to ride a freestyle or championship. If that is the case, then the judges and coaches are not doing their jobs. Why would you mindfeck people by overscoring them and then try to level it by raising the qualifying scores? Then tell them that 60% really isn’t sufficient after all?

Probably the judge who said in an article “I’m tired of seeing horses come down the center line that look like they should be out chasing cattle.” (Not “tired of seeing horses coming down the center line dumped on the forehand,” a statement with which few would argue, but a specific slam against non-WB types)

Or perhaps the judge who said that people should not tell her that a $5,000 is all they can afford for a horse. They pay $32,000 for a car, so get a cheaper car and a more expensive horse. (Ignoring the fact that (a) many people already have the cheapest car/truck they can afford; and (b) a car usually doesn’t go out the pasture and break a leg a couple of days after you buy it.)

[MsM]

Let me float an idea here…
What if they made the training and first level freestyles a little less “free”? What I am thinking of is requiring a “riding program” from each entry. The entry lists the required elements in the order they will appear. With the software available today, it could be inputted and a technical score sheet easily produced. This would make the judging easier which might remove some objections to less accomplished riders doing freestyles. It shouldn’t be too complicated at those levels.

I guess at the root of it are some purists worried about the “purity” of dressage being sullied by flashy musical rides! I am with those who think you should be able to pay your entry and take your chances. It is up to the judges to discourage those who don’t show ability at their level by issuing low scores.

[SnicklefritzG]

Actually she did suggest the very thing she’s saying she didn’t.
go back and read it. :rolleyes:

@atlatl

No, actually @alibi_18 did not say that. What alibi did say was in fact the opposite, that it was not only OK, but actually recommended in her opinion to ride freestyles a level below that which one regularly shows. Alibi also gave you credit for improving your training.

Sheesh! :rolleyes:

[TMares]

@MsM

Let me float an idea here…
What if they made the training and first level freestyles a little less “free”? What I am thinking of is requiring a “riding program” from each entry. The entry lists the required elements in the order they will appear. With the software available today, it could be inputted and a technical score sheet easily produced. This would make the judging easier which might remove some objections to less accomplished riders doing freestyles. It shouldn’t be too complicated at those levels.

I can’t make sense of what you suggested, I’m sorry.

[MsM]

As I understand it, you now choreograph your freestyle as you wish but the judges don’t know in what order you will perform the required elements. My suggestion is to have each entry fill in a score sheet with the order in which they will perform the elements. That sheet is used by the judges to score your ride, reducing the questions of “Was that a lengthening?” etc.
(Comes after discussion with an L Grad who talked about the difficulties of judging freestyles)

[pluvinel]

Well…all this angst is for naught…the rule change is a done deal
https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/4ynK…ed-by-board-of

DR129.9 Tracking #074-18 Draft #1 Approved

DR129.9 Musical Freestyle Ride.

Change to read: 9 Except for USEF/USDF Championship classes and for FEI Pony Riders, FEI Junior, FEI Young Rider and FEI Para - Equestrian Freestyles, in order to enter a freestyle class at any level, a horse/rider combination must have received a minimum score of [60%] 63% in the highest test of the declared freestyle level or any test of a higher level at a Federation Licensed or FEI recognized Dressage Competition or “open” Dressage class (i.e. open to all breeds) at a Federation Licensed Competition held prior to the competition where the horse/rider combination is entered to ride a freestyle class. … Effective 12.1.18

[Silverbridge]

@pluvinel

Well…all this angst is for naught…the rule change is a done deal

I (and, I assume, others) understood that from the outset.

The OP asked “what say you?” about the rule change. Subsequently, people said.

A significant percentage of COTH angst is for naught. But that is a part of what online BBs are for. Commiseration. No?

[pluvinel]

@Silverbridge

I (and, I assume, others) understood that from the outset.

The OP asked “what say you?” about the rule change. Subsequently, people said.

A significant percentage of COTH angst is for naught. But that is what online BBs are for. No?

The OP stated…

@Cowgirl

USDF powers who be are raising the qualifying scores to ride a freestyle at all levels to 63 from 60. The rationale is that scores have overall gone up so we need to raise the bar. Also you have to demonstrate technical proficiency to ride a freestyle and most of them think the score should be 65. What do you think? I personally think its exclusionary. A friend pointed out that the directives for freestyles state that it should be fun and not just for scores. I know people who would not have qualified to ride a freestyle at their level, but do fantastic freestyles and score ten percent higher.

There was no statement that there was an approved rule change.

[SonnysMom]

@pluvinel

The OP stated…

There was no statement that there was an approved rule change.

She said USDF powers who are raising the qualifying scores not have proposed raising the qualifying scores.

[alibi_18]

@MsM

As I understand it, you now choreograph your freestyle as you wish but the judges don’t know in what order you will perform the required elements. My suggestion is to have each entry fill in a score sheet with the order in which they will perform the elements. That sheet is used by the judges to score your ride, reducing the questions of “Was that a lengthening?” etc.
(Comes after discussion with an L Grad who talked about the difficulties of judging freestyles)

I know I’m supposed to be angry but I’ll respond to this because it is interesting.

I spoke with judge Francis Verbeek about this last year. She wasn’t too thrilled because it got complicated for the scribe and the judge who didn’t know the test enough in advance and it ensued a bit too much talking back and forth to make sure everything was followed/there/the right thing. The usual sheet is quite easy to follow. Floor plans are apparently like regular tests, and when you don’t know the test kinda by heart, it’s more complex to follow. I once had to read a Para test for a judge (didn’t have another copy of the test) and write comments at the same time… Not doing that ever again if I can avoid it.

How it works : http://www.dressageheadlines.com/articles/dressage/value-new-grand-prix-freestyles-degree-difficulty-dod

https://inside.fei.org/system/files/FEI%20Freestyle%20System%20Degree%20of%20Difficulty%20(DoD)%20Appliance%20Guidelines.pdf

Degree of difficulty assessed - how to : http://dressagefreestyle.fei.org/data/pdf/Creator-Manual.pdf

If this is something people would want to do at the lower levels, it would need to be done in a « professional/standardized » way like it is at the FEI level and that would probably bring some extra costs or fees.

[atlatl]

One thing I admire about really good FS riders is the ability to go to a Plan B under various circumstances. Say making up for snafus or putting in extra credit movements. I like that riders have that option so would prefer they not have to submit their floor plans in advance.

[Cowgirl]

@Belowthesalt

Probably the judge who said in an article “I’m tired of seeing horses come down the center line that look like they should be out chasing cattle.” (Not “tired of seeing horses coming down the center line dumped on the forehand,” a statement with which few would argue, but a specific slam against non-WB types)

Or perhaps the judge who said that people should not tell her that a $5,000 is all they can afford for a horse. They pay $32,000 for a car, so get a cheaper car and a more expensive horse. (Ignoring the fact that (a) many people already have the cheapest car/truck they can afford; and (b) a car usually doesn’t go out the pasture and break a leg a couple of days after you buy it.)

DING DING DING
However, I have to add that judges and prominent professionals from around the country were lining up to agree. Several commented that 63 is too low and that it should be 65.

Let me be clear: I don’t currently have a dog in this fight as am taking a break from showing. But this is the reason I am taking a break from showing: I find the current judging system elitist and confusing. If that ride in Del Mar could score in the high 50s (and we can argue for days about the quality of the horse, who I don’t believe was showing his quality on that particular day), then how can you explain, without making all the Old Dead Masters of Dressage roll over in their graves, the same score given to a pleasant and consistent and largely obedient but “6” mover with one or two mistakes. Shouldn’t dressage be about training rather than “untraining” or “not training”? (And by “not training”, I am referring to all the gazillion dollar flashing young horses who score through the roof at the low levels and are never to be seen at FEI because trainers took those god given talents for granted and failed to teach the horses to use their backs). Shouldn’t they be judging for a good, engaged carrying hind leg over front leg flash? Why do amateurs in my region now feel they have to drop a hundred large on a horse just to show up?

[WildLittleWren]

@Belowthesalt

Oh, geez, Here we go again. Qualifying scores. Why? For freestyles or otherwise. Those who are on an National Championships/FEI track are going to get there whether or not qualifying scores at lower levels or for freestyles are required. WHO CARES if someone with a pony-gaited horse of undistinguished breeding potters around at TL or 1st level and gets high 50s/low 60s scores (or worse), but wants to have the fun of doing a home-made freestyle. Who does it hurt? Who is at local recognized shows except exhibitors/helpers/family? If they enjoy themselves, more power to them
.
Implement qualifying scores and watch people flock to the schooling shows and away from recognized shows. Then where are the $$$$ going to come from to support those recognized shows if they loose the lower level riders that basically “pay the bills.” I haven’t shown in three years due to my horse’s injury. I’m beginning to feel relieved about it. I don’t have to put up with the condescension of TBTB. I have the scores to do a freestyle up to 2nd level if I want, with enough scores at 63% (I think - haven’t looked at my old tests for a while. I know there are a couple of 65% in there, but not sure if they’re at Test 3 of the level).

If your* dressage feelings are hurt by having to watch the less than perfect fumble around at the lower levels, then don’t watch. Even if they are really bad (as long as it’s not abusive) and are too dense to realize it, they’re probably still enjoying the experience and their entry fees keep the shows going. If they don’t care, why should you? If they are in the moderate to good range (I guess that’s where I might classify myself), well, my $$$ are as good as anyone else’s. If I want to do a freestyle, why should I have to “prove” anything beyond the fact that I have a horse and the entry fee to compete. Are ONLY those who are trying for the FEI levels to be permitted to show?

Qualifying scores for championship? Absolutely, But for run of the mill local recognized show? unnecessary and punitive.

RANT OVER. Sigh.

*all references to “you” and “your” being generic, of course.

I wholeheartedly agree. Not everyone is on the FEI track and us “lowly amateurs” want to have fun and enjoy where we are currently at, and on where WE plan on going. Our money funds these shows, and money is money, regardless if it’s an amateur or a professional.

[js]

@Belowthesalt

Probably the judge who said in an article “I’m tired of seeing horses come down the center line that look like they should be out chasing cattle.” (Not “tired of seeing horses coming down the center line dumped on the forehand,” a statement with which few would argue, but a specific slam against non-WB types)

Or perhaps the judge who said that people should not tell her that a $5,000 is all they can afford for a horse. They pay $32,000 for a car, so get a cheaper car and a more expensive horse. (Ignoring the fact that (a) many people already have the cheapest car/truck they can afford; and (b) a car usually doesn’t go out the pasture and break a leg a couple of days after you buy it.)

I so wish I had saved all those articles, many in DT and threads from the “other” board from several years ago. We used to get participation from BNT’s, riders and USDF officials. The things that were said, including what you have posted above were real eye openers.

[NJRider]

@alibi_18

Who made the comment? Could you send me the link?

To me, no, 63% is not the new 55%… but with the half-points, yes the scores have changed a bit, not to that extend.

Re: “63% is the new 55%” it was not made by a Judge on the Committee, it was a comment by a FB user.

I have a question to those wanting to be able to enter a show and ride their freestyle for fun and there not be a minimum score requirement to enter. Why not ride HC?

There is also the route of the Western Dressage Worlds- you can be Champion of the WORLD and there are no requirements at all to qualify- you just have to enter the class, manage not to be eliminated, and if you win you are Champion (esp the gaited classes who have very few entries). There are people who do not show, have never ridden a 20m circle but are showing at the World Championships…because they can. They seem to be having fun, have costume freestyles, etc. Should standard dressage look to that model as an example?

[pluvinel]

@NJRider

Re: “63% is the new 55%” it was not made by a Judge on the Committee, it was a comment by a FB user.

I have a question to those wanting to be able to enter a show and ride their freestyle for fun and there not be a minimum score requirement to enter. Why not ride HC?

There is also the route of the Western Dressage Worlds- you can be Champion of the WORLD and there are no requirements at all to qualify- you just have to enter the class, manage not to be eliminated, and if you win you are Champion (esp the gaited classes who have very few entries). There are people who do not show, have never ridden a 20m circle but are showing at the World Championships…because they can. They seem to be having fun, have costume freestyles, etc. Should standard dressage look to that model as an example?

Well…my answer is yes.

The AQHA has about 400,000 members and the USDF has about 30,000 members…based on numbers, one can say the AQHA is a bit more successful at attracting people…perhaps USDF can take a page from their play book.

The USEF High Performance Division has strict qualifying requirements for international competition. The people who play in that sandbox are NOT the group of people who make up the bulk of the USDF membership…so perhaps USDF should learn from AQHA and cater more to its member base and less trying to be a mini-me of USEF.