Rather than tagging onto the TC thread - Split Samples for Charlatan and Gamine in Arkansas are Positive

[Laurierace]

@skydy

It’s just the WHY of lidocaine. It’s a stupid drug to use on a horse if you don’t want to be caught. In what circumstances would a trainer think it beneficial to use lidocaine and risk a positive drug test? Since the amounts were relatively small as far as performance enhancing effects go, what would be the reasoning?

Is there a rule about time frame that horses can receive joint injections before a race? Do you wonder if not reporting them was a possible cause? Lidocaine perhaps used to numb the injection site?

If the horses were meant to have lidocaine to dull soreness before a race, the amount in the horse’s bloodstream would have to have been much higher.

That is my feelings as well. There is no point because there is a 100% chance you will get a bad test even if you are way under the therapeutic level. They do not use lidocaine to numb for joint injections but they do for nerve blocks to detect lameness sites so I guess that is a possibility and they just didn’t clear the drug as expected. I can’t imagine two horses that were lame enough to need diagnostic nerve blocks winning days later and both of them not clearing the drug normally.

[Texarkana]

@Laurierace

That is my feelings as well. There is no point because there is a 100% chance you will get a bad test even if you are way under the therapeutic level. They do not use lidocaine to numb for joint injections but they do for nerve blocks to detect lameness sites so I guess that is a possibility and they just didn’t clear the drug as expected. I can’t imagine two horses that were lame enough to need diagnostic nerve blocks winning days later and both of them not clearing the drug normally.

That was my thought, too. The most logical explanation is that both horses had some sort of procedure or diagnostics close to race date. But I doubt we’ll ever know the truth. Common sense, IMO, says that if this was a situation where lidocaine was used well in advance of the race for benign reasons and just didn’t clear as expected, they would have said that.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@Texarkana

That was my thought, too. The most logical explanation is that both horses had some sort of procedure or diagnostics close to race date. But I doubt we’ll ever know the truth. Common sense, IMO, says that if this was a situation where lidocaine was used well in advance of the race for benign reasons and just didn’t clear as expected, they would have said that.

Maybe I’m old and gullible (or any one of a number of other good excuses :lol:) I really do believe that the contamination did come via the Salonpas patch that Barnes(?) was wearing. I suspect a major brain f*art on his part to just not internalize that the patch has lidocaine and inadvertent touching/itching/re-application/whatever transferred some of the pharmaceutical content of the patch to the tongue tie material and to the horses’ mouths. I don’t know where on the card the 3rd horse ran (ie, before, between, after Gamine and then Charlatan).

As you all have said, I just can’t believe that someone of Barnes’ experience would intentionally apply a pharmaceutical to a horse knowing it would be caught in a test (particularly if the horse were to win the race… Gamine didn’t even run in a stakes race… IIRC it was an allowance race).

I know I’ve done things at times that made perfect sense to me forgetting some little detail until someone else smacked me upside the head with the detail upon which I had to do the ‘duh’ how did I forget.

Even if stupid, overlooked mistake, the rules are the rules…

[Texarkana]

@Where’sMyWhite It’s not that I don’t believe the Salonpas excuse. It’s quite plausible and I try to take things at face value.

But at the same time, Bob Baffert certainly gets a lot of practice delivering the, “aw shucks, we didn’t know,” excuses and explanations.

When you’ve been at the top of the game for as long as Baffert and Jimmy Barnes, it is surprising that there is still so much they are learning involving medication. I am sympathetic to the sensitivity of drug testing and the ease at which mistakes can be made, but there are also plenty of stables who don’t seem to be on the same learning curve.

[skydy]

@Texarkana

@Where’sMyWhite It’s not that I don’t believe the Salonpas excuse. It’s quite plausible and I try to take things at face value.

But at the same time, Bob Baffert certainly gets a lot of practice delivering the, “aw shucks, we didn’t know,” excuses and explanations.

When you’ve been at the top of the game for as long as Baffert and Jimmy Barnes, it is surprising that there is still so much they are learning involving medication. I am sympathetic to the sensitivity of drug testing and the ease at which mistakes can be made, but there are also plenty of stables who don’t seem to be on the same learning curve.

Exactly. So many other people are able to stay within the rules. It shouldn’t be this hard for Baffert.

[skydy]

@Texarkana

That was my thought, too. The most logical explanation is that both horses had some sort of procedure or diagnostics close to race date. But I doubt we’ll ever know the truth. Common sense, IMO, says that if this was a situation where lidocaine was used well in advance of the race for benign reasons and just didn’t clear as expected, they would have said that.

I thought Baffert seemed a little strange in this interview, but you’re right, what would be the point in hushing up a diagnostic procedure (if that’s even possible). https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac…th-ankle-issue

[skydy]

CHRB will have a hearing regarding Justify’s Santa Anita Derby win. https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/242507/chrb-to-hold-hearing-on-justifys-santa-anita-derby

[Where_sMyWhite]

Different horse, different drug, same trainer… kinda makes you go hummm :rolleyes:

[Where_sMyWhite]

Baffert needs to keep on digging that hole :no:

Gamine has tested positive for betamethasone after her third place Kentucky Oaks finish (behind Shedaresthedevil and Swiss Skydiver).

Betamethasone is not prohibited in NY but has a zero tolerance on race day after a 14 day withdrawal.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/244281/second-failed-post-race-test-for-baffert-trained-gamine

[Where_sMyWhite]

Got bounced I think from a BH link…

Baffert needs to keep on digging that hole :no:

Gamine has tested positive for betamethasone after her third place Kentucky Oaks finish (behind Shedaresthedevil and Swiss Skydiver).

Betamethasone is not prohibited in NY but has a zero tolerance on race day after a 14 day withdrawal.Baffert needs to keep on digging that hole :no:

Gamine has tested positive for betamethasone after her third place Kentucky Oaks finish (behind Shedaresthedevil and Swiss Skydiver).

Betamethasone is not prohibited in NY but has a zero tolerance on race day after a 14 day withdrawal.

[Where_sMyWhite]

Sigh - two unapproved - Gamine has tested positive after her third place finish in the Kentucky Oaks behind Shedaresthedevil and Swiss Skydiver).

[ravenclaw]

Is it the same drug that she tested positive for in the other race?

[EventerAJ]

@ravenclaw

Is it the same drug that she tested positive for in the other race?

No. She tested positive for betamethasone this time. Last time it was lidocaine (from “contamination by assistant trainer’s hands who applied an Icy Hot back patch to himself”). Bloodhorse article states Baffert’s attorney says vet gave her betamethasone 18 days out, which exceeds the required 14-day limit. But Gamine’s test game back at 27pcg. Allowable limit is 0, but used to be 10pcg, so despite the recent rule change she seems to still be over the old limit.

[Where_sMyWhite]

How long can you dance before you get tripped up???

Wonder what Baffert’s excuse will be this time…

[Texarkana]

Here’s the thing: Bob Baffert does not have an exceptionally large racing stable. People like Todd Pletcher, Bill Mott, Mark Casse, Chad Brown, Mike Maker, Graham Motion, etc. are responsible for FAR more horses and humans than Baffert. If they can show up to all the big dances without getting an accidental positive every time, then there is no reason why Baffert should have so many issues.

[LaurieB]

@Texarkana

Here’s the thing: Bob Baffert does not have an exceptionally large racing stable. People like Todd Pletcher, Bill Mott, Mark Casse, Chad Brown, Mike Maker, Graham Motion, etc. are responsible for FAR more horses and humans than Baffert. If they can show up to all the big dances without getting an accidental positive every time, then there is no reason why Baffert should have so many issues.

^^^ :yes: :yes:

[Laurierace]

We know it is betamethasone but what we don’t know is the route of administration. I found a study that said IA administration of betamethasone was found in the samples of some study participants at 20 days out so 18 days may not be enough for all horses to clear their system. Not sure what the rules on joint injections in KY is though.
Kind of surprised she was tested at all though. Do they take the top 3 on Derby weekend or was she a special?

[Mara]

@Where'sMyWhite

How long can you dance before you get tripped up???

Wonder what Baffert’s excuse will be this time…

His “excuse” is that the threshold for betamethasone is too low. :rolleyes:

How long before we’re informed it’s going to be lowered…just coincidentally, of course.

[Where_sMyWhite]

:rolleyes:

I’m sure he’ll continue to get the high end sales and training business but… for me, if I was in the ‘high end’ arena, I’d be seriously thinking of a other trainer (I’d probably have already been thinking of a different trainer/conditioner; there are plenty of other good trainers as noted above without the repeated dings on test results.)

[Ben_and_Me]

@Laurierace

We know it is betamethasone but what we don’t know is the route of administration. I found a study that said IA administration of betamethasone was found in the samples of some study participants at 20 days out so 18 days may not be enough for all horses to clear their system. Not sure what the rules on joint injections in KY is though.
Kind of surprised she was tested at all though. Do they take the top 3 on Derby weekend or was she a special?

Laurie, I could very well be wrong (I am not a track vet) but I believe they test every horse running in the Oaks and Derby. Trying to remember the details but I’m fairly sure we did pre-race testing (blood) on every entry for the Oaks and Derby when I helped work Derby/Oaks weekend in 2015. I cannot remember about post race testing.