recently adopted adult dog just killed a cat

[dressagetraks]

@GoodTimes

My inlaws have a cat killer, he lived with the cat for 5 years before he worked up the nerve to do it. He’s a wonderful dog in every other way, they just won’t get another cat.

Obviously their mileage differs, but I just couldn’t do it myself. Even if I’d had the dog for years, even if he killed the last cat so no more living there, I would never again be able to look at him and think, “Good boy.” He’d go to the shelter immediately. If he were too old/established with me to be a good adoption prospect to adjust to a new catless home (hypothetical extreme: 20yo dog, and this had been his lifelong home), I’d have him PTS, not as “revenge,” but because rehoming would be cruel to him. But I just couldn’t continue to live with a cat-killing dog, even if no more feline victims were available at my house.

OP, glad the dog got returned, and I hope the rescue is honest in forwarding the information to others.

[GoodTimes]

@dressagetraks

Obviously their mileage differs, but I just couldn’t do it myself. Even if I’d had the dog for years, even if he killed the last cat so no more living there, I would never again be able to look at him and think, “Good boy.” He’d go to the shelter immediately. If he were too old/established with me to be a good adoption prospect to adjust to a new catless home (hypothetical extreme: 20yo dog, and this had been his lifelong home), I’d have him PTS, not as “revenge,” but because rehoming would be cruel to him. But I just couldn’t continue to live with a cat-killing dog, even if no more feline victims were available at my house.

OP, glad the dog got returned, and I hope the rescue is honest in forwarding the information to others.

To each their own. I’m a dog person, I’ve lived with cats over the years, but I could never love a cat the same way I love my dogs or horses. To me, and obviously the inlaws, we would consider it very extreme to give away a 5yo dog that we love let alone have him PTS when there are literally no other issues and no other cats.
In a situation such as the OP’s it would be much easier to send the dog back and let a non-cat family fall in love with him.

[S1969]

@dressagetraks

Obviously their mileage differs, but I just couldn’t do it myself. Even if I’d had the dog for years, even if he killed the last cat so no more living there, I would never again be able to look at him and think, “Good boy.” He’d go to the shelter immediately. If he were too old/established with me to be a good adoption prospect to adjust to a new catless home (hypothetical extreme: 20yo dog, and this had been his lifelong home), I’d have him PTS, not as “revenge,” but because rehoming would be cruel to him. But I just couldn’t continue to live with a cat-killing dog, even if no more feline victims were available at my house.

OP, glad the dog got returned, and I hope the rescue is honest in forwarding the information to others.

Because dogs should instinctively know that cats are off limits? I think that’s ridiculous. 90% of COTH would be thrilled if their dog chased down and destroyed an opossum. Why would we assume that dogs would know without training that cats are off limits?

My dogs will chase/catch/consume as well. Rabbits, small mice, moles, frogs, etc. If they kill a groundhog they don’t want to eat it but they will rip it up if I let them. I don’t encourage this type of “sport” but I certainly don’t blame them - they are hunting dogs and are always hunting, like it or not… I have cats and they get along, but I have seen them get excited and chase the cats in a way that is not acceptable, but they were all brought up with cats from puppies, so I don’t really worry (but I do stop it).

I am sorry that the OP had to rehome the dog but it is probably a good thing for all because she has cats. If she didn’t, however, sounds like it would have been a good match.

[dressagetraks]

Where did I say they should know cats are off limits without training? Any dog I ever have had so far, and any dog I ever do have, will fall into one of two categories:

1. If an adult (see #2 also for separate puppy expectations), I have 100% knowledge of history on this particular dog, not just the breed but this individual, from either a reputable breeder (credentials verified) or a friend (trust and long history of earning it verified). No “unknown period” before the dog came to them. I want to talk to someone who knew that individual from very young puppyhood. For this reason, with dogs the size I like, I will never trust a rescue. Because even if the rescue is the most honest thing that ever walked the planet, the people who surrendered might not be. It would be made clear (and has been with previous dogs) that this dog, if gotten as an adult, MUST ALREADY BE trained and socialized 100% to cats. Of course, I expect training went into this. I will (and have previously) make it very clear that if an adult, ONE slip-up, one act of aggression on a cat even short of killing, one doubt in my mind on an encounter I see, and the dog leaves. Period. The people knowing that individual dog already need to be totally honest with me on this. And if the dog, in spite of previous socialization and training, “snaps” one day or is sneaky enough to “work up the nerve to,” as the in-law’s dog above did, sorry. One strike, and you are out. My Bernese, the best dog I’ve ever had so far, was adopted as an adult. Never would have taken an adult that size except from someone I absolutely trusted, and I still told her several times, reiterated it, one question mark, one doubt in my mind regarding cats, and the dog would be back at her place the same day. She swore the dog was 100% reliable on cats. I trusted her honesty enough and her dog training ability enough to believe her, but I still watched carefully. The dog was, indeed, reliable on cats.

2. If I get a puppy (or with puppies I have gotten), I first will enlist the advice of many experts on that breed whether they can be trained from a young age with cats and what things you need to watch for, what danger signs. I would want a purebred for a more known quantity of traits. I would have the puppy leashed at all times around cats for the first weeks to months as needed reading how things were going. I would watch most carefully. No canine-feline unsupervised interactions for many months, and it’s the dog who would be crated when I wasn’t right with my eyes on them. Any inappropriate interest would be corrected promptly. I would go for training and enlist experts to help. And if, as the pup kept getting bigger, stronger, there was ONE DOUBT in my mind that this wasn’t working, I’m not sure the pup is getting socialized/trained reliably, not sure this will ever be 100% trustworthy, I would rehome the pup before it reached full adult strength.

Nowhere did I say without training. But this is set in stone from day one on my dogs. They MUST either already be (adult) or become with training (pup) 100% reliable on cats. If I have ANY question of that at any time, they leave. If they seem to become reliable and then one day, even if after years, are not, they leave. One strike, and they are out.

As GoodTimes said, people differ. Cats are on a higher level than dogs to me. I don’t hold other people to that, but for me, the cats are much closer. Any conflict or hint of conflict that could potentially turn dangerous, and it’s the dog that exits. But nowhere did I say I expected that magically with no training. On the contrary, I insist that either by someone else already whose credentials I can verify, or by me with expert help, training will be applied to this end. And if the training doesn’t seem like it will be 100% successful, or does seem so and then for whatever reason one day down the road fails, it is the dog who will leave.

[GraceLikeRain]

@S1969

90% of COTH would be thrilled if their dog chased down and destroyed an opossum.

Gross! If that’s even remotely true I find that very sad.

I tend to think less of people who find joy or thrill in the death of an animal, regardless of whether they or their dog were responsible. Thankfully, I surround myself with dog people who always report on such incidents with sadness and reach out seeking support to prevent further accidents. I can only think of one who seems to brag and I have intentionally distanced myself as a result.

[S1969]

@GraceLikeRain

Gross! If that’s even remotely true I find that very sad.

I tend to think less of people who find joy or thrill in the death of an animal, regardless of whether they or their dog were responsible. Thankfully, I surround myself with dog people who always report on such incidents with sadness and reach out seeking support to prevent further accidents. I can only think of one who seems to brag and I have intentionally distanced myself as a result.

Not because they want to watch it for sport, but because they want all opossums dead because of the possibility of EPM. Whenever the topic comes up people have no qualms about saying they kill them on sight. I’m sure if their dogs did it for them they’d be just as happy. But cats aren’t allowed, and dogs should know this.

[blitzkrieg]

OP - thank you for doing right by the dog, returning him and giving him another opportunity to find a suitable situation. You are right to be thankful that this happened soon and not years down the road. It is very hard to look at a dog the same after you’ve observed them do something like this, especially if you haven’t had years of bonding time beforehand to “soften” the blow of the experience.

The dog I watched do this I had worked with and loved for a few months. The cat was a well-loved resident of our facility and we were all devastated. I was the one to clean up the dog since I intercepted her first. She had zero idea she did anything wrong - she just did what came natural to a terrier and it was still really hard to look at her. It took a few months to get past the experience and she was otherwise an incredible pup; totally obedient, very loving towards every person and any other dog - a great canine citizen with that one asterisk. She went onto a lovely cat/small animal-less home where she is completely happy and adored. Her new family knows she’s a proven cat killer, which is fine with them since they don’t like, have or want cats. I hope the same happens for this dog. Thank you for doing right by him.

[Foxtrot_s]

As a rescue dog he may have killed other cats before - sounds lie he knew what to do. But there are people who have no cats, live with small yards and every time they go out they are on a leash…somebody with the right set-up could take him.

We have two cats that are old and stand for no nonsense in the neighbourhood. My dog has met them both, been boxed by one, and seems to have a healthy respect now. She was on leash and got a strong reprimand from me, too. She got nothing good out of the experience!

[jherold]

Of course they know what to do. It’s instinct. My collie has never herded before, but she instinctively knows how to do it. It’s hardwired into her DNA. My shepherd killed things that ran. It was hardwired into his DNA. There’s nothing “right or wrong” about it. It’s a part of the dog that you can either live with or not.

[french_fry]

To all of you who are making a distinction between dogs that are “cat safe” and not, I would be veeeeeeeery careful.

While some dogs have lower prey drive than others, all dogs roughly the size of cats or larger are capable of killing a cat and many smaller ones could still do a lot of damage.

I worked with a rescue that has taken in many dogs that were beloved family pets for months/years and totally trustworthy with the resident cat(s) until they up and killed one unexpectedly. Many of these dogs were purebred and many were low prey drive breeds, so it’s not just rescue dogs with unknown pasts.

My (rescue!) dog helps me foster bottle baby kittens and is so gentle with them that it is precious to watch, but I would never fully trust her even with my own resident cats. They always have a high place to escape to and it was over a year and a half before I started leaving her loose with them at all.

I would never say with certainty that she wouldn’t kill a strange cat that ran by outdoors. And again, she helps me raise bottle babies and lets them climb all over her!

I wouldn’t return my dog for killing a strange cat outside, as horrifying as it would be. I’d keep my dog under better supervision. I’m not sure why the dog was off leash a couple of days after being adopted, anyway, I have never seen a shelter or rescue that would recommend or allow that. They don’t even know where their home is yet - it would be so easy to lose them.

[vacation1]

I’m with the “dog kills cat, dog gets an upgrade to a humane, painless death by vet.” There are lots of nice dogs who don’t kill cats out there needing homes, particularly very big hound/pit/whatever that dog is. Life is too short to eff around with dogs that kill.

“Prey drive” has become some sort of rescue lunatic code for “violence directed at someone I don’t care about” in the dog world and it’s getting real, real old. We’re living in a time when dogs (#2 most popular pet animal) will, if they maul a child, get their own lawyers and FB pages - do you think maybe writing cats (#1 most popular pet animal) off as “prey” is perhaps just a touch insane as well as obviously callous? And it’s just too smarmy for words to shrug it off as “Well, adopt Killer to family without cat, problem solved.” Dogs get out. Dogs get out all the time. Do you really think that the new family will a) never leave a door open and b) never let their child walk Killer? A 70lb dog who enjoys killing cats is not going to be stopped by a 90lb child.

[khall]

Good grief vacation. Many many dogs will go after a cat, even if they live and are ok with their own cats very often they will go after strange cats. I know my farm dogs will. I have a barn cat that lives quite peacefully with my 4 dogs yet we also have feral cats that all of my dogs will chase. They have yet to catch one, but I am sure they would try to kill it if they did. They know the difference between “our cats” and strange cats. In fact one of my mightiest hunters (all 28 lbs of manchester terrier) will kill rabbits and squirrels and will eat them. Yet he helped raise 2 two bottle kittens, he loved those kittens.

This dog sounds like a nice dog who was put into a situation that he was not ready for. Yes there are people out there who will adopt a dog as an only pet and are responsible pet owners. I do not have a problem with that at all. And being a cat killer does not mean the dog will go after a person.

You are way to quick to euthanize these dogs IMO. I do draw the line at unprovoked bite of humans. THAT is when a dog needs to be euthanized regardless of the breed. (BTW I have walked that walk with a dog I rescued and it was a bully).

[GoodTimes]

@french fry

I wouldn’t return my dog for killing a strange cat outside, as horrifying as it would be. I’d keep my dog under better supervision. I’m not sure why the dog was off leash a couple of days after being adopted, anyway, I have never seen a shelter or rescue that would recommend or allow that. They don’t even know where their home is yet - it would be so easy to lose them.

I’m pretty sure that the OP said earlier in the thread that it was a fenced yard, the cat just happened to be inside the fence.

[LauraKY]

Some dogs just can’t live with cats. They need to go to a no cat home…and there are plenty out there with either people who are allergic to cats or just don’t like cats.

And yes, some dog breeds are more likely to attack cats than others because of their breeding, like sight hounds.

[someday]

@GoodTimes

I’m pretty sure that the OP said earlier in the thread that it was a fenced yard, the cat just happened to be inside the fence.

yes, the whole property is fenced with mesh. And yes, I’ve already admitted I was too trusting too early. I do understand that it’s normal for a dog to chase an unknown cat, but it was the intensity of it that was disturbing. The dog has found a new home and I hope it works out well for him.

[Janeway]

Do people really not mind when their dog kills a rabbit? I’m a total bunny person, and I cringed every time I read “rabbit” on the list of animals a COTH poster’s dog has killed. I would cry my eyes out if that happened - I feel bad enough the occasional time one of my cats catches a bird! Or am I just too much of a city person to think like this?

[Sswor]

@khall

You are way to quick to euthanize these dogs IMO.

Disagree. We have a HUGE dog overpopulation problem. Too much time, energy, and way too many resources are being squandered on dogs that have pretty serious issues–meanwhile, loads of perfectly nice dogs waste away in shelters everywhere–or get the needle because there’s just too many.

Lots of dogs will chase cats, but few will kill them. Cats are real damn good at intimidating most dogs who are just up for a good chase. Cat gets cornered and turns into teeth and claws–most dogs will turn tail and split. The type that stand their ground and go in for the kill on THAT–no thanks.

[khall]

My dogs are farm dogs and as such will chase, kill and sometimes consume squirrels and rabbits the odd armadillo too. Guess what my cat will too! In fact I would much rather my dog do the killing because it is quick for the creature unlike my cat who loves to torture them endlessly. We have a large population of creatures that scamper about here, an occasional one taken out of the population is not something I will cry over. Now my barn cat getting taken by an owl, yes I was upset, it happened but I did not blame the owl just like I will not blame my dogs for going after creatures (even the odd feral cat) that are not “ours”.

[Houndhill]

@Sswor

Disagree. We have a HUGE dog overpopulation problem. Too much time, energy, and way too many resources are being squandered on dogs that have pretty serious issues–meanwhile, loads of perfectly nice dogs waste away in shelters everywhere–or get the needle because there’s just too many.

Lots of dogs will chase cats, but few will kill them. Cats are real damn good at intimidating most dogs who are just up for a good chase. Cat gets cornered and turns into teeth and claws–most dogs will turn tail and split. The type that stand their ground and go in for the kill on THAT–no thanks.

Agree mostly, but, of the dogs who do kill cats, if they are sighthounds, they are just faster than the cat, and kill it on the fly, before the cat has a chance to stop and defend itself. Of course, some sighthounds make short work of a cat who does try to defend itself. Actually, a cat is sometimes better off when hunted by two sighthounds- I know of a cat who was “stretched” between two Borzoi and survived, yet would have been killed instantly by one.

[khall]

Any dog that will chase will also potentially kill the cat, especially if they are not familiar with the cat. My dogs will sometimes chase our barn cat but he knows the dogs well enough to stop when they chase which turns off the predatory chase behavior of the dogs (yeah you know dogs are predators!) That is why in having cats with dogs IMO it is important to have dog savvy cats that do not act like prey would i.e. run. It is not just sight hounds that are fast enough to catch running prey, I have seen 3 of my 4 dogs run down squirrels more than once, often running so fast they run over top of the squirrel. Dog’s will grab and shake their prey when they catch them on the fly which is what sounds like happened in this case. I see no reason to blame a dog for doing what their instincts as a predator drives them to do. It is up to us as the humans to train the dogs and/or manage them which again sounds like what happened here, dog was let loose too quickly and put in a situation that set him up to fail.

When training the dogs that I work with, I train for the dog to be rewarded for turning his/her attention away from the cat. Was just working on this with one of my newer fosters yesterday. Had Cooper on a long line, he is very interested in my barn cat (until the cat wacks him or looks at him too closely!) but the cat was 25ft away doing cat things and Cooper was very interested in him. I had treats and let him be interested but kept control, when he turned away he got mega treats. Did not take him long to decide hey the cat is not nearly as good as those yummy treats. I let it be his idea to turn away though and did not force that thought on him.