Recommendations of trainers to send bucking horse to!

[Gumby80]

As you say, checking every last physical possibility can get expensive, but then, sending him off to a trainer could be pretty expensive too.

My favorite horse-related quote ever is “horses don’t do things just to piss you off” (from Gail Greenough). They are logical animals. He’s not just being naughty, he’s trying to tell you something. Playing on the backside of the jump is one thing, but a big buck designed to unseat the rider is quite another.

If he were mine, I’d xray his neck and back, and his front feet. It’s great that you’ve already tried a few things, but Robaxin, magnetic blankets and chiropractic work won’t help you diagnose or address what’s actually going on. They’re at best supportive therapies once you’ve figured out the underlying issue. Get a good vet in there to do some imaging first, and go from there.

[Wanderosa]

Something doesn’t add up here, too. The parents are willing to splash out on trainers and, let’s be honest, a new horse at the rate this is going. But don’t want to spend a few 100 on radiographs? The phrase penny wise and pound foolish comes to mind. Last time I had front foot radiographs done it was so inexpensive that I thought the vet’s billing office made a mistake.

[endlessclimb]

@Wanderosa

Something doesn’t add up here, too. The parents are willing to splash out on trainers and, let’s be honest, a new horse at the rate this is going. But don’t want to spend a few 100 on radiographs? The phrase penny wise and pound foolish comes to mind. Last time I had front foot radiographs done it was so inexpensive that I thought the vet’s billing office made a mistake.

I note also that the trainer blurts out “pain issues have been ruled out by vet” and then later indicates only a basic manual palpation has been done - no xrays, no blocks, no nothing.

[DressageChick2019]

@endlessclimb

Wait wait wait. The girl has been riding and showing him extensively for TWO YEARS, in another program. She comes to your program and within 5 months you guys deem him too dangerous for her to ride - only the pros can ride him now?? WTF?

I’ve got a recommendation for a trainer to send the horse to!

Whichever one he was at last, who fixed the problem the first go around before he came to your program.

I appreciate your sarcasm and attack on us as trainers when I was simply looking for honest advice from others to help our horse and kid get back to their normal. Heres a little more info, which I would assume one would need before making judgments like yours- The horse had a bucking problem with the previous trainer as well, the kid was taken off the horse and he was put through training to stop the problem… EXACTLY what we are doing now. The horse comes to a new program and after awhile starts bucking again, which if you know anything about horses really is not that uncommon- new place, new people, new regimen, new feed, new footing etc. Not hard to believe a horse who has tried his luck at bucking before, might give it another go in a new environment if it is in fact part of an attitude issue. Not only with attitude, but a new place can affect pain as well- like I said, new footing, new feed, new people, new normal can bring out new physical issues as well. The girl still flats the horse multiple days a week, however does not jump him anymore after she was sent to the hospital when he unpredictably bucked her off, because we are good trainers who want our kids to stay safe and uninjured, not punish them as you seem to imply. The knowledge, care and training we provide well exceeds that of the other trainer, which is why this family moved barns to be in our program, even after two years with someone else. And as a trainer who would like to help our horse without my own pride getting in the way, I have no problem asking others for advice on a forum because any advice is helpful and considered if it means helping the horse. Thanks for taking time out of your day to offer me nothing but judgment.

[DressageChick2019]

@endlessclimb

I note also that the trainer blurts out “pain issues have been ruled out by vet” and then later indicates only a basic manual palpation has been done - no xrays, no blocks, no nothing.

We have done everything that our vet has recommended we do so far, a vet that we have worked with for years and trust. If she says she sees absolutely nothing up front but he needs help behind, we trust her and let her inject what she believes the problem to be. This issue only began about 3 weeks ago so we have yet to dive into every possible option since the horse was very recently injected behind which was the start of our quest to figuring out what could be wrong. Like I said in other posts, the vet is coming again Friday to look at him, and with the advice of everyone who has kindly replied, I will speak with her about options like radiographs and potential issues up front that she had originally ruled out. Thus far, the only “pain issues” our vet saw have been treated appropriately.

[IPEsq]

IME, most horses don’t just “try their luck” at bucking you off. Even the ones that might have appeared to do so because of the “randomness” of it turned out to have another issue. One that sounds quite a lot like you describe turned out to have terrible arthritis in the withers. That occasionally came out with flatwork but jumping was much worse. Or she was perfect. You’d never know, but when she bucked it was VERY hard to sit.

Other examples have been with horses with sore stifles, sore hocks. Sometimes this comes up as also lead change issues (as well as anticipation of the change), which you don’t have, so I’d put them lower on the list.

The most common IME for your issue is front feet. Spine (including neck and pelvis) would be secondary but less likely if he really is that good in flatwork. Now, there are plenty of reasons this problem could go away temporarily. More comfortable footing, could be as minor as how much moisture you have and how the ring was dragged that day. How high the jumps are–might be fine when they are lower. Where the horse is in the shoeing cycle and how the horse was trimmed that cycle. I had a horse who needed a lot of foot. He would not act foot sore until you jumped a big oxer then hold on! Left him a bit taller/longer and no problems. Some horses might need pads/pour ins. You may have very low grade, chronic subclinical laminitis that flares up from time to time. Knew a horse like this who was “randomly” very dangerous, especially jumping. Until he got a full blown case of laminitis that he didn’t recover from. Radiographs showed he had chronic inflammation in the foot for a long time. You may also have coffin joint arthritis issues. Mild navicular issues. So many things can be going on in the front feet that could potentially ebb and flow. While bucking can turn into a habit, if this horse really has the temperament described, I think it’s got to be pain, and it’s highly likely to be in the front feet.

Perhaps putting him in boot camp makes him suck it up for a while, but it doesn’t mean there’s no pain. After all, it’s not like he immediately goes back to being perfect for a pro. Might just get lucky that the stars align for a while and there’s less pain.

[Skip_s_Rider]

Have you considered doing a bute trial to see how he goes then? Some people try it for a few days, some for a week or more. Whether or not it helps can provide clues as to what’s going on.

[NancyM]

The horse is not happy with what is going on in his life. This is not a training issue, it’s a management and riding issue. You need to find out what is making him unhappy with his current life, and solve that issue for him. If you can’t do that, he is not suitable to be a horse ridden by a rider who can not deal with his complaints. Best plan is to solve his problem for him, if possible. Sending him to another trainer/rider may solve his problems, if his problems originate with this treatment and riding in your barn, but if he comes back to the same management and riding to which he currently is objecting to, his bucking behaviour will simply start again.

[DressageChick2019]

@IPEsq

IME, most horses don’t just “try their luck” at bucking you off. Even the ones that might have appeared to do so because of the “randomness” of it turned out to have another issue. One that sounds quite a lot like you describe turned out to have terrible arthritis in the withers. That occasionally came out with flatwork but jumping was much worse. Or she was perfect. You’d never know, but when she bucked it was VERY hard to sit.

Other examples have been with horses with sore stifles, sore hocks. Sometimes this comes up as also lead change issues (as well as anticipation of the change), which you don’t have, so I’d put them lower on the list.

The most common IME for your issue is front feet. Spine (including neck and pelvis) would be secondary but less likely if he really is that good in flatwork. Now, there are plenty of reasons this problem could go away temporarily. More comfortable footing, could be as minor as how much moisture you have and how the ring was dragged that day. How high the jumps are–might be fine when they are lower. Where the horse is in the shoeing cycle and how the horse was trimmed that cycle. I had a horse who needed a lot of foot. He would not act foot sore until you jumped a big oxer then hold on! Left him a bit taller/longer and no problems. Some horses might need pads/pour ins. You may have very low grade, chronic subclinical laminitis that flares up from time to time. Knew a horse like this who was “randomly” very dangerous, especially jumping. Until he got a full blown case of laminitis that he didn’t recover from. Radiographs showed he had chronic inflammation in the foot for a long time. You may also have coffin joint arthritis issues. Mild navicular issues. So many things can be going on in the front feet that could potentially ebb and flow. While bucking can turn into a habit, if this horse really has the temperament described, I think it’s got to be pain, and it’s highly likely to be in the front feet.

Perhaps putting him in boot camp makes him suck it up for a while, but it doesn’t mean there’s no pain. After all, it’s not like he immediately goes back to being perfect for a pro. Might just get lucky that the stars align for a while and there’s less pain.

Good advice, thank you! Definitely going to talk front feet issue possibilities with vet tomorrow.

[eclipse]

Have you also had his teeth checked? I’m not riding right now due to health issues, but have a very good ammie looking after my guy. He’s a horse that will start bucking when something hurts and he started bucking a week or so ago…would start great, then would loose it on the landing and buck. They were thinking front end so called the vet (he’d had his coffins injected a year ago and figured it was that again,nope they’re fine), Turns out, he’d broken his tooth 307 and so he was reacting to mouth pain…teeth had been floated 3 weeks earlier and all was fine!

When you do do get the vet out, make sure she looks at everything, including in the mouth!

[DressageChick2019]

@eclipse

Have you also had his teeth checked? I’m not riding right now due to health issues, but have a very good ammie looking after my guy. He’s a horse that will start bucking when something hurts and he started bucking a week or so ago…would start great, then would loose it on the landing and buck. They were thinking front end so called the vet (he’d had his coffins injected a year ago and figured it was that again,nope they’re fine), Turns out, he’d broken his tooth 307 and so he was reacting to mouth pain…teeth had been floated 3 weeks earlier and all was fine!

When you do do get the vet out, make sure she looks at everything, including in the mouth!

Good idea! He was recently floated- about 1.5 months ago, and hasn’t had any typical mouth pain signs, but I will definitely have her to a peak just in case. Thanks

[ace]

@DunByMistake

My horse started bucking after jumps in the spring. I wrote it off to being full of beans and jumping outside after a winter in indoor. Looking back, it was one of the first signs of discomfort. He was xrayed and diagnosed with coffin joint arthritis in August. For the couple hundred bucks it costs to do a lateral view of each foot, I would personally start there.

I see a few people said this, and that was my first thought when I commented on your thread in Off Course - gut feel is there is some pain in his front feet.

[DressageChick2019]

@ace**

I see a few people said this, and that was my first thought when I commented on your thread in Off Course - gut feel is there is some pain in his front feet.

Yes, we are looking into that now, started an equiox/bute trial and then will X-ray fronts depending on that. Thanks!

[Daventry]

I have to agree with everyone else. Horses just don’t start bucking for no reason. Due to the fact that they have no other way to communicate with us, if we are not able to listen to the subtle hints they give us, I find a horse will start giving louder and louder hints when something is wrong. The bucking is a scream and a last resort from an otherwise polite and sweet horse. My money is on a pain issue - somewhere on the body, feet, teeth, ulcers or ill-fitting tack. There is a reason why he doesn’t want to go forward.

If it were my student and 1) all efforts have been made to pinpoint the problem and you come up empty or 2) the client can’t afford or doesn’t want to spend the money on the diagnostics, I would try and sway them to retire the horse from jumping and start searching for a more suitable mount. Due to this happening more than once, it’s not going to be much fun for the kid, or the horse, and there is the risk of injury.

[js]

Maybe horse doesnt like jumping. Does he ever offer to buck just doing flat work? If no, maybe a career change to dressage.

I would however rule out any and all physical issues first.

[anon6003733]

If this were my horse I would not bute. As well as x-raying feet, I’d be looking seriously at ulcers, including hind gut. You say he’s had some treatment for ulcers but don’t mention if he’s been scoped? Has your vet spoken to you about the possibility of colonic ulcers and the treatment available for those?

Horses can have ulcers for years and he may have arrived with them so not casting blame. I would convince the owners that money spent on trainers should instead be funneled into more thorough diagnostics. His good naturedness at all times other than while landing jumps speaks of pain and that would be my focus, not training at this point.

And for my part I’d go over his daily routine with a fine tooth comb. Buddy time? Turnout? Something to munch on 24/7? Tack fit? Like NancyM I would look closely at any management/riding issues.

[Pennywell_Bay]

A bute trial is pretty standard and should give you an answer quickly IF he is bucking every time he’s jumped.

Then you’ll know if it is pain related. If it is, I’d suggest sending him to a specialist and doing a full body scan or work up by vets who specialize in lameness.

You’re throwing good money after bad by doing this piece meal and probably spending more in the long run.

[scruffy_the_cat]

The ulcers is super easy/cheap to test for as well. A bottle of generic Nexium (esomeprazole) is $7.99 at Target- a 3-pack is $14.99 One bottle = 1 tube of Ulcergard. People have seen results with as few as 3 mini capsules. Improves hindgut issues as well. If the horse is bucking that hard, I’d start with 14 capsules a day and see if there are improvements. You should see results one way or another immediately.

[anon6003733]

My bute comment above was in regard to investigating for ulcers, which would be my first go-to. I wouldn’t use bute until they had been ruled out.
Good info Scruffy!

[DressageChick2019]

Thank you everyone for your suggestions!!