Refusals

[Hoofbeat_Heartbeat]

My gelding sounds similar to your totally “zero stop” horse. He definitely borders on the unsafe side as far as his willingness to leave the ground from anywhere. He certainly has taught me to be more accurate.

I do wonder if he would be more inclined to stop if he were given a not-accurate ride at 4’+. I have shown/ridden him up to 3’6”, and that is still a height that he basically canters over, so perhaps for him, leaving 2 strides out at a 3’6” vertical just isn’t that …. physically hard, so he does it. Versus maybe he WOULD stop, if he were given that same ride at a bigger height (but the pro who rides him barely misses and if she does, it’s not to the same extent as my ammy-mistakes).

[Rel6]

@Amelia.643

I think that only a horse who absolutely never stops can really be advertised as zero stop, but in many cases a horse that does stop because of a horrible distance or other issue is actually preferable to one that will never stop.

This is probably very individual, but if I see a horse advertised as “not having a stop” or “zero stop,” in the context of a sale ad I assume that means a stop is very uncharacteristic of the horse. I don’t read it as the seller trying to convey that it will truly never stop even in situations where it should. In the context of a sale ad with limited time to grab someone’s attention, I don’t find “no stop” to be misleading on a horse that will stop to keep a rider safe.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Yeah, that’s how I always read it as well–i.e., a horse who, if you don’t get in his way, will go over the jump (assuming the jump is within the scope of his ability). Like a little truck of a 13.2h elderly pony that’s going to motor your kid over a 2’6" course, even if said kid has a floppy rein and remains perched in two-point most of the round, I think that’s fine to call that pony “zero stop” even if you’re not going to take him eventing to even Beginner Novice.

Or a horse that won’t come to a screeching stop over a relatively small obstacle just because the rider kind of “stopped riding” and didn’t communicate well with the horse.

Versus the horses who seem to get really upset if the jumps look different when the sun is just so in an an indoor arena, or can be having great rounds with relatively experienced riders and then suddenly and mysteriously decide “I prefer not to.”

[foursocks]

@PNWjumper

I have a “will stop if you f up” mare. She doesn’t tend to look at jumps (though will peek every now and again). We’ve shown through the 1.30m, but I’m careful with her because I know if she feels worried or insecure, there is an objection in there, so I try to never put her in a position where she needs to bail me out. She wants to jump, so I don’t ever worry that she’ll stop for no good reason. But she thinks it’s more important to jump clean than to jump, so if she perceives that the jump is going to be ugly and require her to touch a rail, she would rather not do it (though she is freaky athletic, so can extract herself from sticky situations, even when the fences are big).

This is my older boy to a T. If I set him up correctly so he is balanced and his butt is underneath him and I have the right pace, he’ll jump a house, regardless of how it looks or how high it is. If I don’t do my job, he starts to get nervous and he might decide he can’t do it. He may give me one f-up if it’s below 1.20m, but he won’t give me more than that, and if it’s 1.20, he expects me to ride not stupid so he can jump clean.

My young one is SPOOKY and will 100% stop but we are figuring things out. Sometimes I have to cowboy a bit, but for the most part it is just making sure he is balanced and forward, and I’m sitting with my leg on all the way right up to the jump (so he doesn’t dive onto his forehand). That will get the job done. If I lighten my seat and let him dive he will probably still go over, but it will be with his hind end up over our heads. No one likes that–it makes me feel like I’m going to get forked into the wall.

[SinMiedo]

My guy is as close to a “no stop” horse as I’d ever care to ride. In general, if I point him at something with the intention of jumping it, he’s going over regardless of the spooky factor.
He’s incredibly honest and I trust that he won’t tell me no unless he’s convinced he either can’t do it from where he’s at, or if I’m worried/not committed to going.
Case in point, I was doing a jumper class that was going really well until we rolled back to an oxer. About 4 strides out I realized that they hadn’t reset it from the earlier class and it had a super misleading false ground line. I’m nervous about oxers on a good day thanks to an wreck years ago, so I got worried and he said “no thanks”. It wasn’t really a fair question to begin with, but I’m glad he chose to protect himself/me by not attempting to bomb over when he couldn’t read the fence.

[skydy]

“No stop” horse? I think so.

Richard Spooner; jumps without/drops reins

[Atlas_Shrugged]

My 4yo- bought and backed at 3 by me, stops first time around (we mainly trot jumps) and looks at some jumps like they are going to bite him- then he is fine- same jumps, every damn day. He has crazy scope and step and is quiet otherwise and outdoors, but gets all hot and bothered when he jumps. I just take it slowly and begin the trot about 5 trot steps out in order to have a quiet, knees to his ears, jump. I have had everything on him checked- and have the bills to prove it. Nothing found to be wrong. Time takes time, I guess. I hope? I have trained so many young ones and this guy keeps me up at night worrying whether he will someday outgrow it. I like to get them to indoors eventually so they need to be able to eventually go in without a warm up.

[Farosh]

That’s interesting about your eventer, I really have very little knowledge about eventing, I did it up through training level as a kid for a minute but I was never very competitive. I had a horse that really never stopped with me in 10 years of competing and I was terrible at dressage lol. I always kind of crave that zero stop horse but that “sometimes stops” horse is probably a better choice.

And yes lol in ads I see horses that have “no stop” and then try them and they definitely do have a stop lol but I try not to say those things unless they’re true. But that’s sort of why I’m interested in peoples opinions on what counts as a “no stop” horse.

[Farosh]

Yes I feel like those horrible nasty stops are usually pain.

I knew a TB who was a fabulous eventer turned jumper. Was competing in 1.10m and suddenly got a nasty stop. Moved down to 1.0m, you could chip and miss all day no stop then after a while there was, moved down to 2’6” was fabulous again.

My old trainer bought him as a 2’6” and under horse and got some X-rays and he has pretty bad ringbone on the RF that had been going on for awhile and no one has mentioned.

[Farosh]

I think having a zero stop horse is super desirable for amateurs jumping very low. But yeah it gets foggier when you’re going higher.
Like for example I was trying horses awhile ago for a student with a 50k budget who was jumping the .85s on a true zero stop chunky fast paint pony who wanted to she able to move up to the 1.0m and maybe be able to do the 1.10m with the horse at some point. Seems pretty reasonable to me. We tried a 9yo warmblood who was doing the 1.30s with a pro. Horse was beautiful and quiet and I jumped it around a 1.10 course and was in love. She got on, made 2 bad decisions to some 2’ jumps, and the horse quit and stopped so hard it dumped her. She wasn’t a great rider by any means but really the horse should have jumped still. So in that case I think okay she was wrong but nothing dangerous happened.

I guess most of us want that zero stop horse that is so awesome they can do it safely.

It’s hard too because sometimes a safe refusal and become a naughty or fearful refusal.

[Farosh]

Yeah love this. My 35yo mare was this horse lol.

But man how do you find these horses? Is it training or is it just innate? I tend to think both. I got so lucky with mine.

[Farosh]

Hey thank you all for your replies they were all very thoughtful and insightful and I enjoyed reading them. This is a tough sport that we do.

I am a trainer and think about this kind of stuff a lot. Kids tend to be pretty understanding and perceptive, but parents sometimes can be difficult to communicate with. They often times feel like they’re spending a lot of money (even when they’re really not at all compared to what this sport is) and feel like everything should be perfect and smooth all the time. It’s hard sometimes to not let that get to you and stress over ways to make things easier.

[mika0116]

Those 2 mares - I’d say combo of both training and innate existence.

Older lease mare was crashed as young horse very badly (1.30+ as a 7 yr old). She had Nimmerdor as a grandsire (she herself was KWPN “P”) and was a broodmare from 8 - mid late teens. She had a few foals and then started jumping out of her field. She used to rear and freak out for about 8 years when brought into an arena with jumps. Randomly she just wanted to “come to work again” and she came to my old trainers.

Mare never got light in the front - never bucked - her spook was a tail swish - and she took timid old me from cavaletti through 2’6. Look at those knees over a 2’6 or lower fence - it was my first time I think jumping something over 2’ as an adult at the time…

She this dark bay with a big white blaze

Second lease mare (grey below) and I don’t have a ton of photos but this screenshot of a corner on a course during a lesson sums her up perfectly - the bend, the balance, the inside hind stepping under her laterally, the tail swish. Her name, Pele, meaning fire goddess, was very apt. She is the one who would jump flames - she dragged you to every jump and would pat the ground to the base and hop. She is 1/2 KWPN 1/2 TB - Storm Cat line.

Needless to say - when I shop - I want a KWPN mare of SOME sort… I have a type.

[dmveventer]

@Farosh

I think having a zero stop horse is super desirable for amateurs jumping very low.

@Farosh

She wasn’t a great rider by any means but really the horse should have jumped still.

I really disagree with this. Having a horse that will cover minor mistakes is great, but the rider should have to RIDE in order to support that. It’s a two-way street. Packer types are great and worth their weight in gold, but if people only ever ride “zero-stop” horses they’ll never learn how to lay down a better trip to prevent the stop before it happens. “Zero-stop” at the lower levels brings to mind the truly terrifying low-level jumper shows where people lay down gasp-inducing rounds and their horses figure it out because it’s only 2’-2’6. Those people could do with a few refusals IMO.

This instance sounds like a totally fair stop, especially with a rider who was new to the horse and probably nervous. Honestly it sounds like a horse with more exacting standards than her pony is a good next step for her education.

[IPEsq]

Sounds just like a horse that is not beginner friendly! Not really about the jump per se.

[atl_hunter]

I prefer a horse who has a bit of self preservation and don’t consider “zero stop” to be a great quality in a horse.

When it’s not safe to attempt the jump it’s better to stop. There’s nothing worse than seeing someone find the flyer and land on or in the jump. Some horses are clever enough to swap the lead or add a quick step to close the gap, but not all of them can do this.

[Farosh]

Idk I think if you’re jumping super low the horse should take a chip or moderate long spot at least most of the time.

I think a horse that’s competing in the 1.30s should be able to jump a 2’ jump with a bad distance. I don’t think a 2’ chip is a dangerous situation for a horse capable of jumping the 1.30, but maybe so for a horse whose max is 2’. It’s a lot less effort than jumping a 1.0m course with bad riding which I see most horses in the 1.0m complete perfectly fine.

I think it’s less reasonable to expect a horse to jump 1.20 with bad riding.

I think as a novice rider you can learn to feel those mistakes without always being eliminated or having a stop and improve on them.

[dmveventer]

I expect my horses to figure out a bad distance as long as I give them a good ride to it, but just because it wouldn’t be dangerous for a horse to do something doesn’t mean they owe it to us if we’re not riding well. Height doesn’t really matter, if the rider is actively making the horse’s job harder a lot of them will choose not to jump and I think that’s a fair choice. There’s a reason the seeing-eye-dog packer types are so expensive, not a lot of horses are THAT forgiving all the time.

Rather than blaming the horse I would be more worried about the other half of the equation - if the rider is riding poorly to 2’ jumps maybe getting eliminated at shows and moving up to the 1.10s shouldn’t be the main concerns here. The rider needs to decide if she’d rather focus on moving up in height and rely on packers to do it or if she’s willing to spend some time at lower heights learning how to ride when the horse won’t cover for her.

@Farosh

It’s a lot less effort than jumping a 1.0m course with bad riding which I see most horses in the 1.0m complete perfectly fine.

This is the wrong perspective to have here. The bad riding prevalent in the low jumpers is not something to aspire to, it’s what happens when people are more interested in moving up at shows than actually learning to ride. Instead of using it to justify lower standards for others it should be a cautionary tale.

[findeight]

Never heard the term “zero stop” much and when I did interpreted it as they never stopped unless they had to avoid a crash caused by a bad pilot or, possibly, unexpected bad footing at the base (deep, water covered mud hole for example or slick spot on grass). My trainers all schooled us the chip can be your friend and how to ride it too, can be a lifesaver on typical Ammy courses.

Of course, if an ad says “ zero stop”, always wonder if its because it won’t get close enough to any fence to have to stop

[Farosh]

I agree. But I think the occasional chip or reasonable long spot is pretty common mistake for most people, I don’t think most amateurs are capable of riding perfect distances and strides all of the time and if your horse is jumping much lower than their ability (assuming horse is not green) it shouldn’t always be an elimination or even really a huge ask.

I’m not saying the horses owe it to us, I’m just saying that it’s a desirable quality in a horse jumping much lower than their abilities.