Reining saddle for trails?

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;5826096]
In the Hunter forum there’s a “diamond in the rough” thread. In it is a picture of a horse with an intriguing (to me) saddle. It looks like a Western saddle, but it has considerably less bulk. For the lack of a better description, it looks like the Western version of a close contact saddle! I asked the poster and s/he said it is a reining saddle.

So I did a bit of research and the reining saddle apparently does fit very close, has a deep seat, but not an exceptionally high cantle or horn. I read a description here http://www.horsetrainingvideos.com/article3.htm mind you I know nothing about Western saddles or the value of this article.

I am intrigued. I bought and tried an Australian stock saddle (no horn) specifically for trail riding and competitive trail riding. I sat in it once and sold it. Coming from a dressage saddle that Aussie was just too much bulk. I did not like that I couldn’t feel my horse with my leg. So I’ve come to terms with using my dressage saddle (synthetic Wintec 500). However, climbing up and down steep embankments in and out of the farm pond has educated me on the value of polleys/swells and cantles. I’ve been whining that what I really want is my dressage saddle with polleys and a higher cantle.

Have I found it in a reining saddle? Does anybody have one? Can I get it without the giant stirrup leathers and the wooden type stirrups?

Paula[/QUOTE]

Are you “wedded” to the idea of a Western saddle? If so you’ll have to do some careful research as there are so very many varieties in so very many levels of quality.

I concur on the Aussie. I did a three hour trail ride in one and thought I was going to die. :slight_smile: It just did not fit my conformation.

If you’re open to other suggestions look at a Trooper saddle. The upside is that they life the rider off the horse’s back and for long distance that’s a Good Thing. The downside is that you lose a bunch of feel. Try one and see if it works.

Some folks have had success with the McClellan cavalry saddle. It’s pretty “close contact.” Here, too, you have to be careful because they range from the M1859 to the M1928 (with at least four itterations inbetween). Avoid the imports; look for one from a U.S. maker like Tom’s Cavalry Equipment or Border States Leatherworks. Both are high quality makers with fair prices.

Another historic U.S. military saddle is the Whitman. It was evaluated and liked by the Cavalry but not purchased because the government at the time (1879) had tens of thousands of Mac trees in storage and refused to “waste” them. Civilian versions were made; there are custom makers today.

I ride a Stubben Scout, their police/military saddle developed for the Belgian Army in 1948. See http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sellerieclaeys.com/IMG/arton1190.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sellerieclaeys.com/article.php3%3Fid_article%3D1190&h=321&w=400&sz=24&tbnid=4pdDflsM4C4byM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=112&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dstubben%2Bscout%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=stubben+scout&docid=R92N_zKoxxg-kM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xMpoTqP1KZC6tgfcmsSrDQ&ved=0CEQQ9QEwBw&dur=2934 It’s still used by many police agencies in the U.S. and Europe. it’s comfortable, fits well (me and the horse), give a good level of feel, and has 10 d-rings for hanging “stuff.” :slight_smile:

You can also look at Endurance Saddles, but they have the same issues as the Western or the Mac (many makers whose production is not always created equal).

There really is a wide variety of types and styles available. You may have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince. :wink:

G.

Wow, that Stuben scout saddle is interesting. The flaps are very far forward though; how does the leg drop? I don’t know about no polleys or swells though… I’ve learned from experience that those are kind of nice to have.

I’m in the information gathering part of this search and if you ask anyone who knows me, this can go on for a bit :lol:

The learning is the funnest part for me.

Paula

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;5826975]

PRS, how does your horse go with treeless? How is his spine protected?

Paula[/QUOTE]

My horse moves out so much better treeless than he ever did in our treed saddle. I have an older mare (my gelding’s mother) who, at the ripe old age of 25, offered an extended trot for the first time - ever the first time I rode her in the Sensation Hybrid. The Sensation saddles have some structure to them…while they are flexible they are not floppy bareback pads with stirrups. The spine is protected by using a special pad made for treeless saddles. I have a Skito pad made specifically for my saddle. It has some really dense memory foam inserts to which I added a layer of Poron Foam inserts. The pad has wool on the underside where the saddle is but only has felt on the side panels for a closer contact feel. My horse is 15.3 hh and has what I would consider average withers…not high, not low. He has good muscling on his back (now that he can actually use his back). He isn’t one of those horses with an “innie” spine though he doesn’t have a “prominent” spine either. http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz258/dorim_2005/IMG_5467.jpg
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2633036430080191555FkDgWQ?vhost=pets

Interesting. So what do they feel like to you? I’ve never sat in one. The local saddle fitter doesn’t like them generally speaking. I sat in a Kincaid -not a treeless saddle, just a bad, garbage saddle. When I sat it in it just squished flat under me. I had no support in the seat or anything. Granted I am also 200lbs, but are treeless saddles squishy? They look squishy.

Paula

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;5827141]
Interesting. So what do they feel like to you? I’ve never sat in one. The local saddle fitter doesn’t like them generally speaking. I sat in a Kincaid -not a treeless saddle, just a bad, garbage saddle. When I sat it in it just squished flat under me. I had no support in the seat or anything. Granted I am also 200lbs, but are treeless saddles squishy? They look squishy.

Paula[/QUOTE]

It is squishy…sort of, but not in a way that makes you feel as if you have no support. It’s just very comfortable and allows me to feel my horse. It has firm foam layers inside of it under the seat and you can get your choice of foams for the actual seat (I recommend poron for it’s density).I weigh between 170 - 178 pounds. When you get to the heavier side like we are it does get more challenging to get good spinal clearance which is why I added the poron foam inserts on top of my Skito Foam inserts. I’ve used felt inserts too which worked well to get more clearance and weight distribution. This is by far the most comfortable saddle I’ve ever ridden in. I have no soreness issues for me or my horse even after some long rides. The saddle has a nice deep seat, the pommel acts like poleys on the downhill and you can snug your knees in behind the knee rolls too. The cantle, while not the highest I’ve ever seen is supportive enough for me.

ETA: There are lots of folks who have negative opinions of treeless saddles who either have no personal experience with them, have out dated information on them, or have experience with some of the cheap crap sold on Ebay. Like any saddle it has to fit your horse. There are many different models and manufacturers of treeless saddles, not all models will fit all horses and not all horses will do well in a treeless saddle. Like for any saddle fitting you should work with someone who is familiar with that particular saddle to fit it to your horse. Should you wish to learn more about treeless saddles in general I recommend joining the treelesssaddles group on Yahoo! groups: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/treelesssaddles/

I appreciate the information you’re giving me for a couple of reasons. First of all you’re right; the opinions on treeless are quite polar. It’s hard to get information on them without running into ANTI or PRO with caps. Secondly the weight issue; that is not something I’d read about at all, but just wondered from a practical point of view whether weight could affect that spine clearance when you go treeless.

I’m just going to have to sit in one. Perhaps my local tack shop has one I can sit in.

Paula

I really do like the Scout better than anything I’ve ever ridden in. Here are two photos which I picked because they do show something about leg position:

https://picasaweb.google.com/113399063660097850579/NationalCavalryCompetitions#5391766113577116754

https://picasaweb.google.com/113399063660097850579/NationalCavalryCompetitions#5259408876672930258

Recently I’ve been practicing for our upcoming NCC (at the end of the month at Ft. Reno, OK) and for one event I’ve got to turn out with long arm, pistol, and saber. That has been a challenge, because the Scout was designed in 1948, long after the saber had passed into history! :wink: So I’ve had to make straps to allow compatable attachment. It took a couple of tries, but the large number of d-rings allowed it to happen. No photos of that right now, I’m afraid.

The saddle does have some “support” in front of the knee, but it’s not of the same level as a “polley” or “bucking roll.” I’ve not noticed it’s an issue.

As for “treeless,” let’s just say I don’t like them as I’ve yet to see one that effectively distributed weight. I’ve been challenged on that but so far no one has presented a model that does the job. I’ll change my mind when presented with credible fact. :wink:

There is an entire world of military saddles out there that were designed to carry large loads for long distances as a matter of routine. The British Universal Pattern (first used in about 1795 and retired with the end of the British Horse Cavalry in the 1950s) is the root of the Trooper Saddle. There are a number of German Armeesattles around. You can sometimes find serviceable a M1936 Phillips Officer’s Saddle. With any historical saddle you have to be careful to ensure that it’s safe to ride (no leather deterioration, etc.). There can also be fit issues as most military establishements by the 20th Century were breeding a very consistent horse meaning that there was not a big variation in saddle size. Indeed the Phillips came in one size tree as the Remount Service was producing one size and conformation of horse.

There are a lot of choices out there. Pick what will best work for your discipline and taste. Good luck in your search. :slight_smile:

G.

Gosh you are just chock full of information! I didn’t even know these saddles existed. So I see the Stuben does allow the leg to drop down straighter than the flaps seem to imply. And you’ve used this to climb up and down steep embankments and had the support?

Paula

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;5827950]
Gosh you are just chock full of information! I didn’t even know these saddles existed. So I see the Stuben does allow the leg to drop down straighter than the flaps seem to imply. And you’ve used this to climb up and down steep embankments and had the support?

Paula[/QUOTE]

Define “steep embankment.” :lol:

I’ve never done the “Ft. Riley Slide” and I’m not The Man From Snowy River but all the slopes I’ve traversed were done in a safe and comfortable manner. There is plenty of support in the saddle.

The Scout is not widely known and may not be in a lot of Stubben shops. The closest analog is the Stubben Siegfried VSD/DL. My wife rides this and prefers it to my Scout. In 1948 women soldiers and police officers were largely unknown (at least in field duty). The saddle is optomized for the male rider (as many saddles today are optomized for the female rider). Some women like the Scout and some don’t. Buying a saddle really is like buying a good pair of shoes or boots. Even if a fit is technicaly perfect it might not be “comfortable.”

You might want to talk the Stubben folks on their 800 number. They are very nice and very helpful. They don’t sell direct (you have to go through a Stubben dealer). Every now and then you’ll find a used one but it’s just not a common saddle. In many ways that’s a shame because it really does make an excellent general purpose saddle with a bias towards the longer distance trail rider.

G.

I’m no Man from Snowy River either! But just scrambling out of the pond, up and down the steep sides, really showed me what would lacking in riding my dressage saddle on the trails. It wasn’t impossible - I didn’t come out of the saddle or anything - but I definitely saw that swells/polleys, and a cantle would have been nice to have.

Is the Stubben scout very pricey? Did you say, and I’ve forgotten?

ETA for those not in the know of the decent in “Man From Snowy River” reference http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZBXLYJwgt4 the decent starts at about 2:28.

LOL! My pond is considerably shorter than that!

Paula

bob marshall…awesome saddles:D

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;5828342]
I’m no Man from Snowy River either! But just scrambling out of the pond, up and down the steep sides, really showed me what would lacking in riding my dressage saddle on the trails. It wasn’t impossible - I didn’t come out of the saddle or anything - but I definitely saw that swells/polleys, and a cantle would have been nice to have.

Is the Stubben scout very pricey? Did you say, and I’ve forgotten?

ETA for those not in the know of the decent in “Man From Snowy River” reference http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZBXLYJwgt4 the decent starts at about 2:28.

LOL! My pond is considerably shorter than that!

Paula[/QUOTE]

Oh, you tried that in a dressage saddle. Well, there’s your problem!!! :lol:

But don’t feel bad. I once did a three hour trail ride in a dressage saddle (a Stubben Tristan, IIRC). All I can say is “NEVER AGAIN!!!” :no::no::no:

A quick Google search turned up one new one for $2500 asking (included leathers and irons) and one used one for $1600 asking (no mention of leathers or irons). That’s not cheap.

In saddles quality doesn’t cost, it pays. How many people in these waters do you see spending huge amounts on chiros and massage and vets to treat annoying back soreness and a accompanying lamenesses? How many never figure out that their problems flow from cheap saddles? A good saddle will be well engineered and well built with quality materials. Spend the money up front and you’ll spend much less later on. You’ll spare your horse a working lifetime of pain and discomfort. And you’ll get much greater equine utility 'cause you won’t spend near as much time waited for the chiro, massage folk, or vet.

Another “cheap fix” is lessons to learn to ride correctly. But that’s a subject for another day. :wink:

Google “Stubben Scout” and see what’s out there. Then make a decision.

Stubben is not the only quality brand or even the only quality saddle in this genre. I like it 'cause it works for me and my horse.

Oh, if you can’t find a Scout or like the VSD-DL better, Stubben will add d-rings in a pattern that matches the Scout. I think the cost, when we had it done, was $150 (plus shipping). That’s another very viable alternative.

Good luck in your search.

G.

P.S. i don’t work for Stubben and don’t make any commissions, here. :slight_smile:

LOL! They should pay you. That was an excellent endorsement. Honestly my only concern is that there are no polleys or swells. I know you said that you had no issues with embankments without them, so I’ll just have to sit in one and see.

Okay, it’s on my short list.

Paula

[QUOTE=paulaedwina;5828900]
LOL! They should pay you. That was an excellent endorsement. Honestly my only concern is that there are no polleys or swells. I know you said that you had no issues with embankments without them, so I’ll just have to sit in one and see.

Okay, it’s on my short list.

Paula[/QUOTE]

Good!!! :slight_smile:

G.