Reputable Breeders versus Rescue

[trubandloki]

@GoodTimes

And I agree that crowd funding to pay for vet bills is tacky.

I think this is the bigger problem here.
This has become the norm for so many people now.
There are some in my world who do it every time their horse/dog/cat needs anything more than routine stuff - up goes the go fund me. So what if they just went on a fancy vacation, or just bought another house to add to the several they already have. Please everyone else pay for my cat’s vet care.

On the breed or rescue topic - I am fine with either as long as you are getting from a reputable source. (Not a rescue you buys from a puppy mill.)
All of my dogs have been adoptions from the local shelter, and I have had some amazing dogs gotten from this route. My next dog will be bought from a breeder.

[S1969]

@GoodTimes

I don’t disagree with you. And I agree that crowd funding to pay for vet bills is tacky.

Apparently it’s ok if it’s a rescue though. Can you imagine the social media response if the young woman who took one of my puppies had medical issue and asked for money? I’m sure it would span from “you should have rescued” to “greedy breeders making profits” and lots of “that’s what happens in purebred dogs”.

@punchy

The word ‘rescue’ just has no meaning anymore.

Yes, this is exactly it. I’m fatigued from the “rescue” craze. Of course we love a good rescue story and we see them from time to time and it’s great. But I think a lot of “rescues” these days are just organized rehoming.

@Scribbler

Mutts on the other hand often have hybrid vigor, or at least their disparate parentage might keep the genetic issues recessive.

I don’t know that this is actually shown to be true, though. While certain breeds may carry some very breed-specific genetic issues, most of the more common issues that affect dogs are seen in so many breeds that they affect mixed breeds as well. Things like hip dysplasia are common in mixed breeds; maybe more than well-bred litters because breeders can and do test for it and try to eliminate it. Same with DM and epilepsy.

In theory, negative hereditary conditions would diminish in a wild breeding population, but I’m not sure it is actually happening in dogs.

[S1969]

@CindyB59

I’ve been on the search for a show prospect GSD for months. A decent dog is $2,500 +/-, depending on the breeder and/or location. I’ve found “okay” for $5k, and “okay” for $1500. But all from reputable breeders who health test, title, etc.

That’s interesting but not surprising. GSDs are more popular than my breed in general. I’m not surprised that the top winning GSD sells shows pups for $3500; they probably don’t sell many to pet homes.

[Marla_100]

There’s a great need for legitimate rescues and no-kill county shelters. Just visit a shelter and view the 200 or so abandoned dogs. In my area the majority are pits or crosses plus there’s always a dozen or so small dogs who’s owners died or went to assisted living.
Here we have breed specific rescues where many purebred dogs are being re-homed. Some have been pulled from the county shelters before they’re even available to the public.
At times there’s been no GSDs in the shelters here because “rescuers” grabbed them early on so you had to go through the hoarders who made it difficult to adopt. So instead of adopting for very low prices at the shelters ($10.-$75.) the rescues triple or quadruple the price to adopt.
My county shelter here now has a policy of spay/neuter, shots, deworm, de-flea and a full health
exam, before releasing for adoption.

[S1969]

@Marla_100

There’s a great need for legitimate rescues and no-kill county shelters.

Yes, I don’t disagree that there is a need for legitimate rescues. In my breed there is a current situation of a breeder/hoarder that died and there are 39 dogs that need homes. That is not typical but rescue organizations are desperately needed in those situations.

I don’t know how to reconcile the issue of dogs ending up in rescue because people bought from a bad breeder and then didn’t want/couldn’t deal with the dog any longer. Many of these breeders don’t screen homes in any way, or very minimally; so if the buyer has cash, they sell them a puppy. Even if they could predict that it was a terrible match for them.

So, bad breeder, bad placement, poorly prepared owners, and then they give up and the intentionally bred puppy goes into “rescue”.

[candyappy]

@S1969

That said, I am not really a big supporter for people who rescue dogs and then crowd fund for medical expenses. It appears that in this case the defect was known before the adoption took place - so the rescue organization should have been the one crowd funding for money to fix it, not the next owner.

Is it out of line to suggest that the best option is euthanasia when you have to raise money to fix a problem? That applies to a rescue or new owner. My dogs are like family to us but it just seems bit extreme?

Don’t attack me everyone. I have financial limits and my thinking goes along those lines.

[CindyB59]

I would never try to raise funds. Either I can afford my pets or not.

I had cataract surgery done on my toy poodle, probably totaled around $7k. A few months later, our standard poodle bloated and had complications. Vet bill around $6k. Rough pet year. But we did it.

I did (kiddingly) offer to sell a kidney

[Scribbler]

@candyappy

@S1969

That said, I am not really a big supporter for people who rescue dogs and then crowd fund for medical expenses. It appears that in this case the defect was known before the adoption took place - so the rescue organization should have been the one crowd funding for money to fix it, not the next owner.

Is it out of line to suggest that the best option is euthanasia when you have to raise money to fix a problem? That applies to a rescue or new owner. My dogs are like family to us but it just seems bit extreme?

Don’t attack me everyone. I have financial limits and my thinking goes along those lines.

Yes. Right now though there are expectations that you go to heroic lengths for dogs and cats, just like for people. Yes, spend $20,000 to give your aged dog an extra year of life. Vets certainly don’t mind the income or the technical challenge.

Especially in rescue world or if you are keeping a social media presence about your animals.

I find most GoFundMe pages absurd and tacky.

[ASB_Stars]

Here in PA, we have the home of the puppy mill. In general, SE PA is the nexus to hell for my breed of horse, but the Amish also make big bucks raising puppies. After getting outed for the puppy mills, the Amish, ever resourceful, and the English, who love to create cottage industries that cater to the Amish- like Yoder Loader transport, Door to Door groceries- before it became a thing for the English, etc. come together for things like this- a sanitized way to market their puppy mill puppies.

This website is a full featured service- they take pix, post them, and make it all look shiny and wonderful. All kinds of breeds- all raised with children (well, duh, the Amish have kids too!). It’s really slick, until you look at the little factoids like “per the breeder, this pup is purebred, but not registered.”

Puppies for Sale in PA

[IdahoRider]

@Scribbler

Mutts on the other hand often have hybrid vigor, or at least their disparate parentage might keep the genetic issues recessive.

I disagree about hybrid vigor. The pup is only as good as the parents. And most mixed breeds aren’t coming from health tested parents, so they are just as susceptible to health issues that are associated with the breed that both parents bring to the table.
Sheilah

[Scribbler]

Ok my mutt experience is from long ago when mutts were mutts and everything was a “lab cross” even when it wasn’t. I can count on my fingers the number of purebred dogs I saw as a child. Now everything at the dog park is an illustration from Breeds of the World.

By mutt, I was thinking of the dogs I grew up with who lived out lives with little medical intervention. Not crossbred designer dogs mixing bad examples from both sides. There really are not mutts being bred locally at all. Pitbull/Chow and Rottweiler/Cane Corso accidents but not long term mutt families.

[S1969]

@candyappy

Don’t attack me everyone. I have financial limits and my thinking goes along those lines.

I don’t think it’s out of line. I totally agree.

I don’t understand why these people “adopted” this particular dog if they couldn’t afford to cover its medical expenses (which, apparently were known…to someone anyway.) I mean, maybe they got scammed and found out after the fact. But yes I’d have a hard time dropping the better part of $7-8K on a rescue dog.

I did pay for one of my dogs to have two knee surgeries over the course of his lifetime - but he was 10 by the time of the 2nd one, and they were due to a traumatic injury, not a genetic defect.

[Luseride]

I have only ever gone out and bought myself a dog once. All others either showed up or from a shelter.

The one I did buy was quality and I was willing to pay for her. We won at an AKC show as six months. At nine months she was over breed standard in height so I had her spayed because you should only breed to improve the breed.

Even if she had been a rescue I would not put her through that much stress and pain to make myself feel better and when I see all the major work people do that is what I feel they are doing.

[LaurieB]

@ASB_Stars
OMG, just looking at that website makes me ill.

[ASB_Stars]

Yep. It’s amazing how they found another way to be able to continue to do this to animals

[4horses]

My neighbor had a purebred GSD. The dog became more and more painful and crippled in his hind end until they euthanized at age 9. My rescue shepherd is mixed probably with Belgium Shepherd. She’s much better built- level topline and straight hind legs with none of the health issues that purebreds can have.

My cocker spaniel came from a rescue as well and is the perfect fit for our family.

However, rescue dogs can come with mental problems. I’ve had some dogs that were very mentally damaged from whatever happened prior to them being rescued. I haven’t had any dogs with major health issues, at least not until old age.

[Walk_N_Gal88]

I think there is good and bad in both situations, however I absolutely abhor the “Adopt, Don’t Shop” crowd. I don’t mind adopting or rescuing if need be but the dog NEEDS to be what I’m looking for everyone’s sakes.

Side note, here the past few years there has been an uptick in “saving” animals that are so bad off that the kindest thing to do for them is to euthanize them. One of the worst I saw was one where you could count every individual (LITERALLY) bone in a dog’s body, several of which were broken, and he had a massive blood infection. It took months for him to get somewhat healthy. To me, it honestly feels (in most cases not all) that it’s more for the people’s benefit than for the animal’s benefit. Helping an animal should not cause them months upon months of pain.

[pony_baloney]

I may be looking for a tiny companion dog in the near future. My last two dogs were rescues (both were pts due to brain tumors). There are soooo many chihuahua mixes in rescues and shelters and probably some are great tempered and healthy. But I’ll bet a lot are badly bred and spoiled unsocialized purse dogs that were given up because of behavior or health issues. Although I’m all for giving a homeless dog a lifelong home, I really don’t want to take a chance this time.

My trainer breeds Great Pyrenees dogs and has convinced me that a well bred dog from a good breeder is the way to go. I’m not looking for a puppy, but getting a young adult may be tricky. Knowing the history, health and temperament as well as knowing how it was raised, socialized and any early training is worth the price I think. There’s a good Chihuahua breeder a few hours away from me. My trainer’s friend breeds really nice Papillons. I’m also looking into Toy Fox Terriers and Affenpinschers (both not very popular or easily found). I don’t think Min Pins are the right fit for me, as cute as they are. Quality toy poodles and yorkies are popular and not usually available (and a bit high maintenance for me).

If a mix breed comes along and is a great fit, I’ll probably cave and adopt it and deal with the consequences. Despite the brain tumors both previous dogs lived to a decent age. So many things can be wrong with a tiny dog and with them being overbred to fill demand leaves a lot of them looking for homes.

[S1969]

@4horses

My neighbor had a purebred GSD. The dog became more and more painful and crippled in his hind end until they euthanized at age 9. My rescue shepherd is mixed probably with Belgium Shepherd. She’s much better built- level topline and straight hind legs with none of the health issues that purebreds can have.

Without knowing who bred the “purebred” GSD, it’s impossible to know if it was a crap BYB breeder without health testing for basic things like dysplasia. Being purebred is not the reason a dog can have debilitating dysplasia, it’s because the breeder didn’t screen for it and eliminate affected dogs from their breeding pool. Or that dog may have had DM, which can also be avoided to an extent with health screening. But mixed breeds can still have DM too.

There are lots of great GSD breeders who screen for these things and their dogs live long, healthy lives. In fact, since the price of GSDs came up in this thread, I would argue that good GSD breeders probably screen for more things than in other breeds; just because they potential is there.

It’s also possible that your mix has dysplasia - perhaps not crippling, but if visible on an xray, it shouldn’t be bred. Lots of seemingly unaffected dogs have dysplasia; if it was that easy to identify, those dogs would probably never have been bred to begin with. But by age 2, it can be seen by xray. Screening for dysplasia by xray isn’t 100%, but it is definitely hereditary, so only non-affected dogs should be bred at the very least.

[S1969]

I guess my bottom line is frustration at the number of “rescues.” If everyone is getting their dogs from “rescues” - where are they coming from? Especially young dogs.

In the Northeast, there are really very few unwanted litters just showing up in shelters. Rescue organizations actually go find them elsewhere. And some rescues really are going into shelters in the South, and bringing back the mother and the puppies and finding homes for them.

But how are so many dogs ending up in “rescues” in the first place? They are clearly being produced by breeders somewhere.

Which brings me to my other frustration - good breeders (at least in my breed) object to any kind of legislative restrictions to breeding and state that “breeders should stick together” and block laws and restrictions to breeding. But usually, small, quality breeders would fall below the threshold of being affected (e.g. fewer than 50-100 puppies/year) and/or those who produce more should have a license.

I’m not sure why they would object. The breeders affected would be those large, mass-producing puppy mills. Why shouldn’t they undergo an inspection every…5 years or so?