[QUOTE=Countrywood;8218349]
I presume she supports puppy mills since I have not heard her speak out against them.[/QUOTE]
Another excellent example of how your attitude about people is more detrimental to your cause then my Amish puppy purchase ever could be.
Also, I will point out that the OP’s whole mentality of, “I want XYZ specific criteria in the puppy I plan to acquire in the next two days” would not even exist if not for puppy mills and the constant litters they churn out.
Imo this is the best post on the thread! Addresses the heart of the problem.
I was reacting to her attitude and taunting posts which perhaps is a poor reflection on me to answer in kind.
Sorry Swor, your decision is detrimental in the minds of people…you keep calling it an Amish puppy as if that is some cute name for how he was bred. I asked several times if you bothered to visit the breeding facility and your lack of answer indicates you did not. If you had it would have indicated a concern for the welfare of the dogs so I find that part hard to grasp. I’s not a secret the Amish run large scale puppy mills. Perhaps your breeder does not run his operation as a puppy mill, but if you did not visit the facility how would you know.
It’s called determination and drive. Only a nutty rescue person could twist such attributes into something negative. A little fate played a part too, but rescue people only believe in fate when poor, abused puppies land on a rescuer’s doorstep and they get to save the day, with puppy selfies all over Facebook.
Apparently the same criteria doesn’t apply to you, Countrywood. I guess because you have super secret rescuer powers that allow you to know and see all.
This attitude of, “you MADE me buy from a puppy mill” is just completely astounding to me. I cannot get over it.
If you know how horrible puppy mills are, you don’t purchase from them, period. Otherwise you are knowingly supporting puppy mills. It’s black and white.
I hear the “overly strict rescues keep puppy mills in business” argument as it pertains to uneducated dog owners who go to a pet store after being turned off by a rescue. Some people still genuinely don’t know about puppy mills or believe a pet store when it says it sources its puppies ethically. This is unfortunate and I vehemently agree that rescues should be working hard to educate potential adopters and and not have insanely strict adoption criteria.
This is not the OP’s situation.
Pages and pages…the OP is doubling down on dumping on rescues rather than examining her own actions, so what was accomplished…
I am sure her individual puppy is cute and she will enjoy it. It’s the principle behind it and lack of any sense of perspective people are reacting to.
Gotta go get some work accomplished…good luck all.
[QUOTE=Marshfield;8217406]
There are essentially no puppies being sold by the Amish which are anything other than what most of us would classify as commercial breeders/puppy mills. Where’s the health testing for the parents? Just because it’s a crossbred doesn’t mean that health testing becomes a moot point. Your choosing to buy this puppy just reinforces the breeding of dogs in what many of us would consider deplorable conditions. And the ongoing breeding of a specialty crossbred which is going to be suitable for very few homes. The argument that if you didn’t buy the puppy someone else would is bogus. Now you’ve become part of the problem by being part of the market for intentionally irresponsibly bred dogs. Your puppy may live a good life, but what about the rest of the littermates which are cute now, but unsuitable long term for 90% plus of the general pet owning public?[/QUOTE]
As someone who knows many Amish & have seen several litters of pups for sale for many years, what is your sweeping generalization of “deplorable” based on? Have you actually seen with your own two eyes any Amish puppies first hand? how many different locations have you been to?
I would not consider a bitch welping in a bedded stall deplorable conditions. That is the conditions I’ve seen, at multiple farms. Sure I’ve seen the media pictures of racks of squalid cages, but I’ve never seen them in real life. Be careful painting any group with such a large brush.
Looking at what many purebred dogs have morphed into at the hand of “reputable” breeders, I’m not sure what qualifies as reputable anymore. I don’t know that I could consider anyone raising AKC Bulldogs as “reputable” since they’ve created a dog that can’t procreate without assistance. Great they’re vet tested, but their conformation is still hosed up.
[QUOTE=Sswor;8218355]
I love how these rescue people make up their own facts and then get outraged about them.
It’s very obvious that all of them would have preferred that my puppy be purchased by a jerk who neglected, abused, and then abandoned him at their doorstep just so they could swoop in, save the day, and be proclaimed “rescuer of the year” or some other such nonsense. These people are insane.
If anyone thinks there is a puppy mill out there churning out 3/4 Jack 1/4 heeler puppies by the dozens/hundreds/whatever number so they’re available any random week of any random year, I challenge you to find it.[/QUOTE]
No one is making up their own facts except you. If people like you didn’t buy from puppy mills, they would have to stop breeding. The demand is the incentive to breed. Why don’t you just go enjoy your puppy instead of bashing anyone and everyone who tries to help discarded animals.
[QUOTE=Countrywood;8218390]
Pages and pages…the OP is doubling down on dumping on rescues rather than examining her own actions, so what was accomplished…
Fate and determination and drive led the OP to buy from a broker for a puppy mill? ?? I am sure her individual puppy is cute and she will enjoy it. It’s the principle behind it and lack of any sense of perspective people are reacting to.
Gotta go get some work accomplished…good luck all.[/QUOTE]
You have gotten yourself all upset attacking me for a scenario that came straight out of your own imagination. I would agree that behavior is a complete waste of time–not worth getting all worked up over something that isn’t true.
I think you’re just jealous that I have a puppy to cuddle and nurture and raise and go on grand adventures with, and you do not. 
Laura, you too.
I agree about the bulldogs and some of what is excused in the name of “reputable breeders”. A dog that cant give birth naturally do to large head they should not be breeding it
[QUOTE=Sswor;8218405]
You have gotten yourself all upset attacking me for a scenario that came straight out of your own imagination. I would agree that behavior is a complete waste of time–not worth getting all worked up over something that isn’t true.
I think you’re just jealous that I have a puppy to cuddle and nurture and raise and go on grand adventures with, and you do not.
Laura, you too.[/QUOTE]
That’s quite the justification you’ve got there. You know, I started out trying to help you find a puppy until your attitude became apparent. If that’s the attitude you presented to rescues I would have turned you down too.
No one is jealous of you, quite the contrary. Go enjoy your puppy. Make sure you get a thorough vet check and a fecal as soon as he/she comes home. Parvo incubation is 2 weeks, if I were you, I would probably quarantine the new puppy from your older dog (and make sure he/she is current on vaccinations).
[QUOTE=red mares;8218393]
Looking at what many purebred dogs have morphed into at the hand of “reputable” breeders, I’m not sure what qualifies as reputable anymore. I don’t know that I could consider anyone raising AKC Bulldogs as “reputable” since they’ve created a dog that can’t procreate without assistance. Great they’re vet tested, but their conformation is still hosed up.[/QUOTE]
Where is the yawn emoticon?
Look, most people agree with you on the Bulldog issue. But they are ONE breed among HUNDREDS of purebred breeds, recognized or not by AKC. But, a good Bulldog breeder is still better than a backyard breeder that doesn’t care about health, temperament or permanency of placement.
Even cross-bred dog breeders should have standards. Health testing, placing puppies with care to ensure long-term happiness for both dog and family, be willing to take puppies/dogs back and rehome them if it doesn’t work out.
It’s not all about “purebred, AKC registered” dogs. It’s about NOT being a shitty breeder cranking out puppies for cash, and not caring about how they turn out, or where they end up.
Puppy mill, “Amish breeder” or just simply crappy BYB…there is no difference. They don’t have to live in an overcrowded cage to be neglected and poorly bred.
[QUOTE=Countrywood;8218349]
Alagirl seems to be on this thread to taunt and belittle other posters and dump on rescues.
The parakeet story is unusual to say the least …perhaps the birds were stressed/not used to people and the rescue felt it was kinder to keep them together and that if an individual was separated at that stage in its life it would not thrive/ die in a new home. Or the rescue is nuts. Can’t tell without knowing the whole backstory…
Parakeets are cheap to buy and in nearly every pet store so it’s hard to relate their purchase to that of a dog/puppy, nor do we have any information about why the birds were rescued, what age they are, what condition they are in, if any of them would be appropriate to re home individually.[/QUOTE]
That is their policy with all birds they “rescue” they apparently use the Christian children’s fund definition of adoption. The parakeets according to the show are in good condition with no know issues.
[QUOTE=Paks;8218450]
That is their policy with all birds they “rescue” they apparently use the Christian children’s fund definition of adoption. The parakeets according to the show are in good condition with no know issues.[/QUOTE]
I’m not a big believer in sanctuaries (Mill Creek anyone?) but they will exist as long as people are willing to fund them.
[QUOTE=S1969;8218102]
It’s not really that complicated, though.
Even in cross-bred dogs, many of the same congenital defects are present. At the very least, the dogs being bred should be free of defects - hip dysplasia, luxating patellas, eye disorders, heart murmurs. You could probably get all of these tests done for less than the cost of ONE puppy. It may not guarantee a perfectly healthy puppy (nor would it if they were purebred), but it shows that the breeder cares - they care that the puppies will be more likely than not to be free of serious defects.
Isn’t that the least a breeder should be willing to do?
Also, there should be some reason to think that the breeding animals have stable (correct) temperaments - but it requires someone to actually take the dog out of the cage and interact with it during its life to determine its temperament.
Isn’t that pretty darn minimal? That an animal being bred as a companion to humans (not for food) has experienced enough human contact to determine that it is friendly, not too shy, and not aggressive? (Or whatever is the correct temperament for its breed?)
If a breeder can’t do these very basic things, then they are BAD. Call them a puppy mill, or a BYB, or a back yard puppy mill…or whatever. But don’t support them by buying from them.[/QUOTE]
Then for this breed, at that time, there WAS no health testing beyond the basics. It actually is a little complicated. The condescension is nice though. You’d definitely be someone I’d call back, were I interested in learning about and acquiring a puppy.
[QUOTE=rugbygirl;8218512]
Then for this breed, at that time, there WAS no health testing beyond the basics. It actually is a little complicated. The condescension is nice though. You’d definitely be someone I’d call back, were I interested in learning about and acquiring a puppy.[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure what you’re even trying to say.
Yes - the parents of THIS puppy could have been tested for all of these things. The breeder could have determined that the parents did NOT have dysplasia, luxating patellas, congenital eye and heart disorders. The fact that it is a “cross-bred” dog does not change the fact that it can inherit defects from its parents.
So, no, I don’t think that the “basic” pre-breeding health tests were done…unless the OP has kept that a big secret.
Is it a 100% guarantee? No, of course not. But these are congenital defects - known to be passed on to offspring.
[QUOTE=S1969;8218567]
I’m not sure what you’re even trying to say.
Yes - the parents of THIS puppy could have been tested for all of these things. The breeder could have determined that the parents did NOT have dysplasia, luxating patellas, congenital eye and heart disorders. The fact that it is a “cross-bred” dog does not change the fact that it can inherit defects from its parents.
So, no, I don’t think that the “basic” pre-breeding health tests were done…unless the OP has kept that a big secret.
Is it a 100% guarantee? No, of course not. But these are congenital defects - known to be passed on to offspring.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, neither Jack Russels nor Cattle Dogs are strongly prone congenital diseases. Of course there is always the possibility, but it is not extremely common as it is in some breeds.
[QUOTE=supaflyskye;8218592]
To be fair, neither Jack Russels nor Cattle Dogs are strongly prone congenital diseases. Of course there is always the possibility, but it is not extremely common as it is in some breeds.[/QUOTE]
Really?
OFA suggests these tests for Cattle Dogs:
Hip Dysplasia
?OFA Evaluation (min age 2 years) - OR
?OVC Evaluation (min age 2 years) - OR
?PennHIP Evaluation (min age 1 year)
Elbow Dysplasia (evaluation at two years or older)
?OFA Evaluation - OR
?OVC Evaluation
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist - Min Age 24 months
?Results registered with OFA - OR
?Results registered with CERF
Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA Test - from an approved laboratory
?Optigen test results registered with the OFA. First Generation Offspring of tested dogs eligible for Clear By Parentage (A to A breedings). Obligate Carriers (A to C breedings) are also eligible. In addition, for Clear By Parentage, or Obligate Carriers, the sire, dam, and offspring must all be DNA profiled to verify parentage.
Congenital Deafness
?OFA evaluation based on BAER test
Primary Lens Luxation
?PRIMARY LENS LUXATION DNA test from an approved laboratory (added as a requirement effective 10/6/14)
And there were other optional tests.
And these for Russell Terriers and Parson Russell Terriers:
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist
?Results registered with OFA - OR
?Results registered with CERF
Patellar Luxation
?OFA Evaluation
Congenital Deafness
?OFA evaluation based on BAER test
Sounds like it wouldn’t be ridiculous to consider SOME testing for the most common of these possible congenital issues.
[QUOTE=S1969;8218429]
Where is the yawn emoticon?
Look, most people agree with you on the Bulldog issue. But they are ONE breed among HUNDREDS of purebred breeds, recognized or not by AKC. But, a good Bulldog breeder is still better than a backyard breeder that doesn’t care about health, temperament or permanency of placement.
Even cross-bred dog breeders should have standards. Health testing, placing puppies with care to ensure long-term happiness for both dog and family, be willing to take puppies/dogs back and rehome them if it doesn’t work out.
It’s not all about “purebred, AKC registered” dogs. It’s about NOT being a shitty breeder cranking out puppies for cash, and not caring about how they turn out, or where they end up.
Puppy mill, “Amish breeder” or just simply crappy BYB…there is no difference. They don’t have to live in an overcrowded cage to be neglected and poorly bred.[/QUOTE]
It’s far more than one. Most brachycephalic breeds have to be delivered by c section and have to be on antihistamines for life. The working German Shepard has a totally different confirmation than the show GSD whose hips are a disaster because of the show rings demand for the flying trot. The field and show dogs for most sporting breeds are vastly different. A Basset hound whose stomach drags on the floor its hardly healthy or structurally sound but will get a ribbon at a show.
I’d rather deal with a small BYB who is breeding for their own pleasure a useful and sound dog than one breeding for the show ring.
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