Revisiting an old topic... are dressage scores too low?

As an interesting comparison, here in Ontario we have at least 3 Senior EC dressage judges, one with FEI credentials. 2 of them have ridden up to Grand Prix and the other at least PSG (and he also evented to Advanced). I know another went through the EC dressage judge program. They all then got their eventing dressage judge “extension”.

Our pool of judges is not that big - I’ve been scribing for 9 years at events and worked with most of them repeatedly. I’d say they are pretty consistent, at least with each other.

It’s great that your judges are so experienced! Out of curiosity, do you feel that eventing dressage scores range higher in your area than a similar test would score in straight dressage?

I’m guessing yes only because I feel that the eventing dressage is more forgiving of horses that aren’t super-duper movers, and reward correctness and accuracy (probably because the tests are generally lower-level compared to upper-level dressage). If you’ve got a great mover and also ride accurately and correctly then you’re going to get a great score, and if you have a not-as-great mover but you ride your test well, you’ll score relatively well, and probably a bit better than at a straight dressage show.

However, I was surprised because I thought the Senior dressage judges would be much harsher scoring than the eventing-only judges or lower-level dressage judges, and I don’t think they are. In fact, sometimes the mark I give in my head while scribing is lower than what they end up giving (only by about 1/2 a mark, not a giant discrepancy).

Although…I have a TB who is a decent mover but not fabulous, and I am a pretty good test rider after so many years of scribing. I have received more than one 5 in a schooling level pre-entry 2’6" eventing dressage test from one particular judge who just does not like him, and then we went to a Bronze-rated dressage show last year and scored over 71% in our first-ever First Level test. So…???

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Eventing tests are also fairly easy for the level of training the horses have at the respective levels.

Prelim is between 1st/2nd level. So if you have a horse Eventing for years enough to get to Prelim, they should be able to get high 60s/70s in a first or 2nd level test.

Just like horses who stay at Novice for life should be able to get 70s/80s.

Most dressage horses use the lower levels for learning or steps to the next. They aren’t spending 5-10 years doing the same level.

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When comparing Eventing Dressage scores with straight Dressage scores also remember that the judging directives are somewhat different, and the collective marks are VERY different.

For instance, (Eventing) Prelim A is ROUGHLY equivalent to First 3

The “Purpose” for First 3 says
“To confirm that the horse demonstrates correct basics, and in addition to the requirements of Training Level, has developed improved balance, lateral suppleness and throughness, as well as the thrust to perform lengthenings of strides. The horse should be on the bit.”

The “Purpose” for Prelim A says
“To confirm that the horse and rider, in addition to the requirements of the Modified level, have an understanding of the development of thrust to achieve improved balance in a clear and steady rhythm and maintain a more consistent contact with the bit and roundness of the top line. … Accuracy of movements and transitions now becomes more important.”

Notice that straight Dressage talks about “lateral suppleness”, “throughness” and “on the bit”. It does not explicitly mention “rhythm” or “accuracy”.
Eventing Dressage does not mention “lateral suppleness”, or “throughness”, but does say “roundness of the top line”. It does not mention “on the bit” but does say “consistent contact with the bit”. It explicitly mentions “a clear and steady rhythm” and “accuracy”.

On top of that, the collectives are very different.
Straight Dressage has 5 collectives, worth a maximum of 70 points (almost 20% of the total score).
Eventing Dressage has only one collective mark (“Harmony of Horse and Rider”), worth a maximum of 20 points (just over 10% of the total score)

In particular, Eventing Dressage does not have a separate score for “Gaits”. (This was intentional)

So the same horse and rider, under the same judge, performing the same movements the same way, might get a different score depending on whether it was being judged with straight Dressage “Purpose” and “Collective Marks” vs Eventing Dressage “Purpose” and “Collective Marks”.

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@Janet, dumb question: where did you find the “purpose” of Prelim A? Is it on the back of the test? I can’t find it anywhere on the tests posted on the USEF website: https://useventing.com/resources/documents/2022-USEF-PRELIMINARY-TEST-A-WEB-UPDATED-12.06.2021.pdf.

Another question for you (or anyone) if you don’t mind! As a UL dressage rider turned LL eventer, I always regarded Training, Modified, and Prelim dressage as equivalent to 1st Level based on the movements and the paces (working & lengthened vs collected & medium). However, I was a demo rider at eventing dressage judge training in the fall and the instructor seemed to be saying that they expect more of a 2nd Level balance (i.e., collection) at Prelim. I asked where that came from and was told it is in writing somewhere that I’ve never been able to find. Do you know where that might be? Maybe they were just referring to the “development of thrust?” Which I don’t think equates to collection, especially since the Prelim tests are at working paces.

Meanwhile I’ve gotten comments at Modified saying the horse needs to be more uphill. The USDF glossary of judging terms says, “A working trot should have at least a level balance (in contrast to the uphill balance of a collected trot).” So where does this requirement of uphill balance at Modified/Prelim come from? Or is it less a requirement and more an explanation for why my TB, bless his heart, is getting 7s while the WBs who come out of the womb uphill are getting 8s? As in, it’s not required but the judges do need to leave room at the top for horses who exceed the requirements of the level?

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It is on the test sheet itself (the one the judge fills out, not the version that just lists the movements, that you linked to). (You have to pay to get the pdf for the test sheet.) It is right above the part where the organizer fills in “Name of Event”, “Date of Event”, “Name and Number of Horse”, “Name of Rider”.
I do not know the aswers to your other quetions

I think the answer to your other questions about the expectation of second level expression in what is basically 1st level directives is level creep. JMO.

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The previous iteration of prelim tests included lengthened trot and medium canter, which in dressage doesn’t appear until 2nd level. So maybe that denoted a 2nd level ish frame?

The most recent tests are back to lengthened canter though.

Level creep for reasons I don’t totally understand.

If you aren’t going to require the movements and paces of a higher level in the test, why would you require the degree of balance and collection of that level?

To me, that only rewards dressage-type horses without requiring better dressage riding. That makes the criticism that eventing is becoming a dressage show with jumping seem very valid.

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I have gotten this comment a lot, at levels from Starter- Prelim and Intro- First (so all the levels I’ve ever competed basically) and on a huge variety of horses, mostly TBs but also a Paint and the draft cross I’m riding currently.

I guess I thought it was more of a general comment on the direction things needed to go? I mean, I would expect that all other things being equal the horse with more uphill balance would beat the level or slightly downhill horse even if the test directives don’t specifically call for uphill balance.

Yes, definitely - this what I’m seeing, that the 9s and 10s we’re seeing nowadays are the result of “score creep.” What used to pass as 7/8 (overall score of 20-low 30s) are now 9/10 (teens - low 20s).

About 10 years ago, my dressage trainer took her lovely UL dressage horse out at BN a few times, and back then he consistently got something like a 20 (which was unheard of).

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It is now over 40 years since I competed in my first event. From a spectator and lower level competitor standpoint, there is no question in my mind that lower level dressage riding across the board today is head and shoulders above what I recall seeing and riding 4 decades ago.

If you think today’s dressage scores are too low, then maybe it is time for the USEA to consider re-calibrating the rated judges. In my opinion, today’s low scores are rightly earned.

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I scribed today: Novice, Beginner Novice, & Starter at a recognized HT. My judge gave a healthy dose of 8s and some 9s! Which as a straight dressage rider made me VERY happy for the riders but also understand that the scoring isn’t as…stringent?

It’s very fair & compassionate but it’s just a different animal from USDF. And that’s okay!

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Some thoughts I have about this as someone who shows both straight dressage and Eventing. It’s not that it’s not as stringent, it’s that the level of tests and the purpose of the test is significantly easier than straight dressage. You basically do the equivalent of intro/training level(straight dressage) from Starter to Training level in Eventing. While the tests change they don’t really change a lot. Riders get good at their 20m circles they do event after event. The tests are fairly straightforward and with time you can really squeeze out points. Whereas straight dressage you find people riding until they get good scores then upgrading.
The tests are harder and have more chance for errors as they go up in straight dressage. Once you hit 3rd level you’ll need good changes to keep the scores high. You see that in Eventing for the 4*/5* tests when the changes come in. Only the best are getting 7+s on their changes at that point. Scores at the 5* level are not as high scoring typically.

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It really makes me feel better about myself and all the hard work and money I’ve put into my dressage when I go to a show, get a low score, then someone says “oh that judge was being soft.” “Oh that judge was being encouraging” “If you had been to (insert show in Florida or some other state that is more desirable) that score would have been different.”

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“More uphill” if you were downhill would mean you need to come level. Just a guess. If the terms also say “at least” a level balance, then that means level or more uphill than level. A horse with more than level balance (ie. more uphill) would then score higher.

And driven dressage as well… At the world championships you are lucky to see the equivalent of 80% on the podium.

Eventing dressage certainly is better than it used to be, way better, but it seems like the overalls scores are not in alignment with their FEI brethren from the local level on up. And eventing dressage being significantly better can be mutually exclusive from the scoring issue, god knows it sure is in driven dressage!

As a side note, if you ever do see driven dressage scores, don’t think we are terrible, our penalty score has a coefficient that levels the score between lower and higher divisions (the coefficient is based on the number of scored movements), a 48 penalty score is roughly 70%. But scoring is still tough, I’ve seen world championships with only a handful of mid 70s and we really do take dressage very seriously. You might be able to get through jumping without dedicating the majority of your training to dressage, but you will not get through a technical obstacle without it. And I mean that quite literally :rofl:

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I absolutely agree. And to @Janet’s point above, eventing dressage 4 decades ago was scored differently than today’s dressage.

People deserve lower scores than they did in the past. My only “problem” is that eventing tests today are written almost identically to USDF tests with the same scoring methods. But for tests that are so similar, what earns you an 80% on a USEA or FEI eventing tests seems lesser than what earns you an 80% on a USDF test at the equivalent level.

It’s not necessarily a problem. The only time it becomes a problem is when people try to draw direct comparisons between eventing dressage and straight dressage. Like, if an eventer was to try to sell a former eventing horse as a dressage prospect or cross-entering into a USDF show.

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I always look at this from the opposite perspective (primarily because I object to how eventing is scored right now).

Which horse should win at BN?

The excellent dressage horse with better-than-average movement doing a very exact, easy test and a scary XC and lackluster SJ
or
The well-schooled, safe jumper who is adjustable over fences, doesn’t touch a thing, carries the rider safely, but plods in the dressage portion?

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