Ditto - height is less important than build. An 18h horse with a long back, a weak loin, and spindly legs would be a terrible choice. A 15.2 QH which a medium back, a strong loin, thick legs, and broad joints could do great. Saddle fit will be extra important, as will choosing a horse that has a good base of muscle. I’d avoid babies, 7+ with a solid work history is ideal. A horse that is used to carrying a heavier rider will take much less time and conditioning to adjust to you. A 4 year old that isn’t used to carrying anyone may get sore and uncomfortable, and therefore difficult, before he/she ever has a chance to develop the muscle to do so successfully. That same horse with two years of work could be a totally different situation.
I second the advice to get an already well trained horse too. His better balance will let him help you develop your own balance. Another thing I haven’t seen mentioned: the saddle fitter for our barn recommended horses at least 7 or 8 years old for bigger riders, as the horse’s neck and spinal column are the last parts of his skeleton to mature.
There is no 20% rule. That was disproved by a 2017 study done by Dr Sue Dyson at the Animal Health Trust.
In the study, 4 riders of differing weights (light - 10-12% of horse weight, moderate - 12-15%, heavy - 15-18% and very heavy - over 18%) and similar riding abilities rode 6 different horses over 5 days. Same routing - WTC up to 30 mins.
Horses were evaluated for lameness in hand beforehand, then ridden their heart rate, respiratory rate and time of transitions was measured. behavioral signs that previous research showed was associated with musculoskeletal pain were also assessed. A master saddler assessed the horse’s saddle fitting and made adjustments for optimum fit. The riders were also assessed for straightness in the saddle.
All tests for heavy and very heavy riders were abandoned on the basis of welfare grounds, generally because of lameness, showing on average within 16.6 minutes for heavy, and 8.3 minutes for very heavy riders.
Dr Dyson is quoted in the UK magazine Your Horse as saying “We were unable to repeat the tests for heavy and very heavy riders on welfare grounds. We still don’t know where the cutoff point for rider weight is, but it seems to be between 15-18% of your horse’s bodyweight” She went on to talk about saddle fit, rider position and future studies.
At that percentage, at 310#, you’re looking at a horse who weighs 1700 and 2050#
I feel that many riders do not make an accurate assessment of their impact on a horse, but OP I am glad you’re thinking this through. It’s hard to accept that you’re too heavy to ride, and losing weight is so hard for some people that it must feel like having to give up riding too is very unfair. But riding a horse you’re too big for is unfair to the horse, and can cause pain and actually shorten its life. Those 250# cowboys often start their horses at 2 yrs old - they’re often not interested in longevity, so holding them up as an example that it’s OK to ride a small horse doesn’t hold much water I’m afraid.
Yet the studies done at the Tevis, concluded that rider weight had no influence on retirements and lameness, riders up to 30% have completed with no issues.
I still see this one, if you want to use a maths calculation, it’s a bell curve. At one end there will be a small % of horses who can’t carry much more than 5 or 10%, at the far end, those who will carry 30% the rest spread in between, maybe clustered around 20%.
People should use common sense, match their ability, and the use of the horse, with the build and ability. To me there would a vast difference in weight for a days hunting, and a person who wants to walk for half an hour on groomed trails.
As a bigger woman a rely on the feedback of my horse, 3 trainers, vet, chiropractor, saddle fitter, judges…not a % figure.
That’s actually not what the Tevis studies in 1996 or 1998 looked at, or concluded. From http://www.taunusreiter.de/The1995-1996TevisWeightStudy.pdf
"For those that think “of COURSE weight makes a difference” and have been under the impression that these studies claimed otherwise, please read the conclusions and discussions carefully—the key is not whether weight makes a difference, but how weight makes a difference in endurance horse performance. "
From the study, entitled “RELATIONSHIP OF BODY CONDITION SCORE TO COMPLETION RATE DURING 160-KM ENDURANCE RACES”
“We conclude that body condition scoring is more important in endurance horses than was previously believed, and condition score is a much more important factor in predicting endurance performance than is the weight of the rider, or rider weight in relationship to the mount. Body weight of the horse appears to be a factor in incidence of lameness.”
This was a study on how horse body condition affected completion of the race. Horse body condition was MORE important that rider weight in determining COMPLETIONS, but they didn’t study horses for expressions of pain, or physical distress one on one during the study, in the way Dr Sue Dyson did, or for the reasons she did. They simply assessed a horse for body condition, added the total weight or rider and tack and looked at completion data.
Per Dr Dyson’t study, the cutoff is 15-18% - IOW she’s implying don’t go above that, all other factors being equal.
I completely agree with this - there are SO many data points to consider:
Horse weight
Horse conformation
Horse fitness
Rider weight
Weather - heat etc
Geography: steep hills vs a flat trail
Distance
Time
Speed (walk vs trots and canters)
Saddle fit
The trouble is often that people are really bad at judging a lot of this stuff. I don’t know a lot of people who accurately guess their horse’s weight. I see a lot of high strung horses galloping on the trails filled with adrenaline, and the rider thinking they’re sound and happy, only to find them lame in the arena. And how many threads do we see asking for help with saddle fit, or recommending it be done? How many sore-backed horses with light riders, due simply to bad saddles? How many riders determined to ride and willing to overlook signs of pain in horses, or friends of them unwilling to mention it when they see issues because they fear the rider will lash out?
And you’re unlikely to be a problem if you’re consulting all of them regularly, but consider that all those pros are making money from the average horse owner and have a vested interest in not telling them bluntly if rider weight is an issue.
Humans can do as they please regarding their own weight. Horses don’t get a choice, and we need to stand up for them.
“We were unable to repeat the tests for heavy and very heavy riders on welfare grounds. We still don’t know where the cutoff point for rider weight is, but it seems to be between 15-18% of your horse’s bodyweight”
Utter hogwash! I’ve never ridden a horse at under 20%. I’ve ridden our pony at 30% a number of times. He’s fine on level ground. He struggles with steep terrain - 30-40% grades. If I ask for a sharp turn, he’ll struggle with balance due to my shoulders being too high above his back (relatively speaking). He’s now in his 20s. Sound. Has taken me over rough terrain for 3+ hours while staying cheerful and forward. But because he struggles with steep terrain, I don’t ride there with him. Simple. Walking is easier on a horse than running. So we don’t run when I ride him. Unless he initiates it, but he prefers strolling.
I do most of my riding at 24% of my horse’s weight. Simply not a problem! He is very expressive and I encourage his independent streak. He has zero problem with telling me to go to Hades. We both are happy that way. We go up, down and around. Heavy sand and brush. Paved roads. I don’t need some nincompoop in England working for “Animal Health Trust” to tell me - my HORSE would tell me, without hesitation and with plenty of emphasis, if I bothered him!
The easiest sign you weigh too much for your horse’s level of fitness, or size, or build? A tense back! Doesn’t take an activist. If your horse FLOWS, you aren’t too heavy. If your horse braces at a trot, you are. If your horse plods after 30 minutes, you may be too heavy. Or your horse likes to plod! Could be either or both. But if your horse is flowing at the end of ride, you are not too heavy!
“All tests for heavy and very heavy riders were abandoned on the basis of welfare grounds, generally because of lameness, showing on average within 16.6 minutes for heavy [15-18%].”
Good grief! How can anyone read that without laughing? What kind of horses do they breed in England that cannot carry 150 lbs of rider and tack on a 1,000 lb horse without being lame in less than 20 minutes? If she wanted to be taken seriously, she could have at least come up with a plausible number! That is so far beyond the pale of reality that people ought to laugh at her when she walks down the street!
Yeah obviously she’s a nobody and totally unqualified:
Dr. Dyson MA, VetMB, PhD, DEO, FRCVS is Head of Clinical Orthopedics in the Department of Equine Studies at the Animal Health Trust in Newbridge, United Kingdom. Dr. Dyson is a world-renowned expert in equine orthopedics, with a particular interest in lameness and poor performance in sport horses. Having trained horses and competed at Advanced level eventing and Grade A showjumping with a passionate interest in sport horses, Dr. Dyson has an in-depth knowledge and understanding of performance problems in horses from all disciplines. She is highly skilled in the diagnosis of both subtle and complex lameness cases. She is also an expert in diagnostic imaging, including radiography, ultrasonography, scintigraphy and magnetic resonance imaging.
Qualifications and Memberships
- [I]Co-editor and major author of “Diagnosis and Management of Lameness in the Horse,” “Equine Scintigraphy” and “Clinical Radiology of the Horse[/I]
- [I]Awarded the British Equine Veterinary Association John Hickman Orthopedic Award in 2000[/I]
- [I]Honorary Member of the British Equine Veterinary Association[/I]
- [I]Awarded the Tierklinik Hochmoor award for outstanding, innovative and lasting contributions to equine veterinary medicine world-wide[/I]
- [I]Awarded the American Association of Equine Practitioners Frank J Milne award[/I]
- [I]Honorary Member of the Societa Italiana Veterinari Per Equini"[/I]
Since graduating from Cambridge in 1980 with degrees in Applied Biology and Veterinary Medicine, according to the Paulick Report, Dyson has crafted a legacy that includes more than 230 published papers, lectures around the globe and a plethora of awards and accolades. She is a past president of the British Equine Veterinary Association. She has competed in eventing and show jumping at a high level and has had three horses that have successfully competed at European competitions, World Championships and the Olympic Games.
Dyson was awarded a Fellowship of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons (RCVS) and the RCVS Diploma in Equine Orthopedics. She also earned a PhD from the University of Helsinki and the RCVS recognized her as a specialist in equine orthopedics.
She has received awards and honors including the Equine Veterinary Association John Hickman Orthodpedic Award, the American Association of Equine Practitioners Frank J. Milne Award and the Tierklinik Hochmoor Award for outstanding, innovative and lasting contributions to equine veterinary medicine worldwide. She was inducted into the International Equine Veterinarian Hall of Fame in 2013.
Remind me of your scientific qualifications?
To be fair though, it does seem a little far fetched. At 18% of 1,000 lb horse, that’s only 180. Someone like me, who is actually svelte at 175, could only ride an averaged sized TB bareback, lest we go over the 18%. Seems a little bit off to me. But, who am I? Just an average joe with no acronyms after my name. 
With my trainer and vet telling me I’m fine to ride my horse… that’s who I’m going with. These “studies” are awfully discouraging for the most average of folks, let alone the heavier people.
My horse & my eyes. It is like when I was deploying to Saudi Arabia. A medical doctor got up and told us drinking coffee would cause us to lose more water than we gained, increasing our dehydration. A Colonel stood up and replied, “Then I’m a mummy, because I’ve drunk nothing but coffee since I was 15!” I pointed out I had been to Saudi many times, and always returned alive - drinking lots of coffee and ZERO water. Didn’t matter he was a Medical Doctor. What he claimed didn’t match what I had done many times over.
I don’t care how many letters this quack adds after her name! Theory must always bow to reality. And reality is that I and many others do what she says is impossible. After all:
“All tests for heavy and very heavy riders were abandoned on the basis of welfare grounds, generally because of lameness, showing on average within 16.6 minutes for heavy [15-18%], and 8.3 minutes for very heavy [over 18%] riders.”
I ride an opinionated horse at 24% of his body weight. I must be “Super Heavy”. All the time. Oddly enough, he doesn’t go lame at the EIGHT MINUTE mark! Shows no sign of lameness after 4 years of regular riding!
I’ve watched a 200 lb rider plus gear ride an 850 lb horse 30 miles, gaining over 2,000 feet in elevation. The next day, the horse was prancing and ready to go. Not afraid. Not dominated. Not adrenaline. Just had a job to do and was ready to go do it. 20 miles later, I mounted the horse. He was still fluid, still ready to go. And I’m 180 lbs and the western saddle included a rifle.
The woman you cited is a quack. I don’t care how many letters come after her name, or how many years she has done X. What she describes doesn’t happen. Obviously doesn’t happen. Millions of ranch horses can prove she is wrong, remaining healthy and happy while carrying much heavier weights all day long. She could have at least made her [inaccurate statement] plausible.
Watch some videos of her assessing horses for lameness. An eye opener.
Got any links?
Are you saying those videos are bad? In what way?
I would also consider the horse’s gaits when shopping. I think a lower and efficient moving horse is better able to carry a heavier rider than a high stepping or rough gaited horse. I am not sure on the Gypsy Vanner. I have limited experience with them, but they do not seem to be very efficient movers, and many struggle to canter/lope.
The right horse is out there I am sure, but be patient in your search. I also advise being upfront with sellers about your weight.
Xanthoria is not accurately representing the results of the study in question. You can read it for yourself.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/eve.13085
Notable quotes from the article:
Saddle length was appropriate for riders L and M for all horses, and for rider H for Horse 1 only (Table 3; Figs 1 and 2). Rider H sat on the cantle of the saddle for Horses 2–6. The VH rider’s seat extended caudal to the cantle on all horses.
So the saddles fit the light and medium weight riders but the heavy rider was sitting on the cantle and the very heavy rider’s butt extended past the cantle of the saddle. Oh, yeah, that’s an unbiased comparison.:rolleyes:
Then, likely due to bad saddle fit:
Vertical alignment was present for rider L on all horses, and for rider M on Horses 2–5. In all other horse”rider combinations (rider M on Horses 1 and 6, riders H and VH on all horses), the rider’s shoulders, ‘hips’ and heels were not in vertical alignment. This persisted for rider VH during motion; the position of rider H varied according to gait.
Again, a real unbiased comparison there.
It’s also a real problem that the lameness evaluations were subjective and unblinded. A better approach would have been to video the horses, then show those videos, with the riders blacked out, to the individuals who were doing the lameness evaluations.
It’s your opinion that Dr Dyson is “a quack” but to her peers, a large group of highly educated people, she’s highly respected. So pardon me if I place more weight on her assessment of horse weight carrying ability as a whole, than yours. I come from a school of thought where science and education have meaning though.
You may have had an experience outside the norm - your on horse seems fine* carrying lots of weight. Does that mean all horses can? My 16hh 1050# horse staggered when my 175# SO got on - 16% of his weight. So if single, personal experiences mean we each get to start defining the truth for all horses in the world, then I say no horse can carry more than 15% of its weight! :lol:
*You don’t think he’s lame or sore or exhibiting signs of pain, but we don’t know how you’ve assessed that, and whether your bias plays a role in the assessment.
@NoSuchPerson I didn’t misrepresent the study results - I even mentioned saddle fit in a follow up post. But it was a study focused on WEIGHT, not saddle fit. Thanks for posting a link to the full article.
Also, as you’ll know doubt know from your research, Dr Dyson mentions the need for follow up studies, and was very clear about objective and subjective means of evaluation in the study she did. Nobody is saying this is the only study that ever needs to be done.
Yes, but, her study actually showed the importance of correct saddle fit for the rider. In her own data, she clearly shows that only the L and M rider were able to achieve correct alignment in the saddle provided for each horse, putting the two heavier riders at a severe disadvantage. If she really wanted to address the effect of weight on the horse, she would have made sure each rider was riding in a correctly sized saddle. her conclusions regarding weight are erroneous.
i would not get a flex tree saddle. Hope you find the right horse for you!
A quote from Sue Dyson:
“This does not mean that this is a reliable cut-off ratio."
In my rather tardily offered opinion, the mentioned study is a jumping off point for further research – a pilot study – not a scientific answer to the rider weight ratio question.
There just isn’t enough information in the study to confidently draw conclusions that apply to all horses and riders.
- The study used just 6 horses, a third of which had BCS =>7.5 (i.e. very overweight) and whose conformation is largely unknown outside of some basic measurements.
- The study used just one rider to represent each weight class, with significant variation in body morphology (looks like it was 3 women and a man, for example, and rider heights, upper/lower body lengths, and asymmetries varied).
- The study admitted extremely poor saddle fit (rider's weight carried on top of or beyond the cantle) for exactly those riders whose tests were discontinued early, meanwhile lateral saddle slipping was noted for five of the six horses and cantle bouncing was noted for four horses (i.e. saddle fit to horse was also poor in most cases).
- It is unclear whether the H and VH riders were similarly accomplished/capable as the L and M riders (experience listed as years of experience for some but level of competition for others). They state that riders were assessed by BHS instructors using a numerical scale, but do not list the numerical skill grades, only state that they are "similar".
- Test abandonment decisions were made on the basis of subjective judgments and did not make any effort to control for experimenter bias.
- One horse shows a left hip hike with all riders, and another shows significant right hip hike with all riders except VH; furthermore multiple horses showed lameness <3/8 with lighter riders, suggesting that the designation of all subject horses as 'nonlame' might not be so clear cut (if a horse shows visible lameness with a light, balanced, experienced rider up for 30min, many people would not consider it 'nonlame').
At the same time, they qualify their findings by stating that the results can’t be generalized to horses in lighter or more strenuous work, or horses being ridden for different durations, or horses more gradually conditioned to carry weight. That’s a pretty strong indicator to me that the authors don’t see this as a result that is meaningful as a general indicator of acceptable horse/rider weight ratio that can be applied to all of equestrianism.
I’m glad that this work is being done, but frankly, if this paper were in my field and were submitted to the journals I edit or review for, it would not have been accepted without massive revision and probably additional experimentation. It’s interesting, in a ‘proof of concept to get funding to do larger scale research’ kind of way, but there’s no gospel truth about rider weight to be had here. I wouldn’t be comfortable getting on the “science says don’t ride, fatty” bandwagon without a lot more convincing evidence than this.
What can OP take away from it? Buy a sound horse. Assess its comfort/soundness carrying you before buying, if possible. Condition it responsibly to the physical work you plan to ask of it. Make sure your saddle fits you and your horse both. Develop a team of trusted professionals (trainer, vet) who will alert you if they see subtle signs of lameness or discomfort. In other words, all of the same advice that one might give a lighter rider looking for an equine partner, and all advice it sounds like OP has heard before. If OP doesn’t plan to do 30 minute dressage rides in an ill-fitting saddle on a horse that hasn’t been conditioned to carry her weight, then she should feel free to disregard the Dyson paper entirely.
