do you have a link for that? And what’s it based on, other than simply the bones ? I mean, does she have history on these horses, including the early years, the type and correctness of riding, turnout, all those things?
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I went back and I see it’s a post that she shared (did not write) and the shared post links a Deb Bennet source (though the link doesn’t work, I think I saw it corrected in the comments somewhere (of which there are many)).
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=988448181985734&set=a.263449581152268
Naim has had several posts lately about overuse injuries, etc so starting riding later does seem to be the tone I’m catching, myself.
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What can I say, as a life long trainer and colt starter, with experience in different systems, in a Europe over half a century ago, starting all kinds and ages of horses, domestic and feral ones, those many old, we considered starting a horse before 4 questionable if not poor animal husbandry, almost unethical.
Then I came to the US and guess what, so many horses were started at all ages, including late yearlings and in those programs, horses were fine.
We retrained race horses for English riding disciplines and competed against old horses under those same systems that were still doing fine, obviously not “damaged” by their early race horse start.
Also, when starting two year olds myself, what a difference, they were happy go go along with you, you were their world as much as their horse world was, they didn’t have to get convinced that, as an older horse, now they needed to learn to work with humans and be ridden and do this and that crazy stuff, when they rather stay in their stall or pasture and just chill out.
My point on this, it is not what age you start a horse under saddle, is HOW you go at it, with a sensible program that adjusts to what each horse needs, that is what makes a good horse.
You can mismanage any horse at any age if you don’t have the skills to train properly, for the horse in front of you, at any age you are training and riding any one horse.
Now, there is a line there that each one of us has to decide if to cross, that is behind so much we do in life, with horses also:
What as responsible humans, from what is available to us in our environment, should we be using, how and why and if not, why not?
Including using horses in the many ways we do.
That one is where each one of us has to make a deal with ourselves and try to stick with it.
For some that may be not to have horses, or not to start a horse until certain age.
For others to participate in some and not other disciplines, to follow one or another teacher or program.
THAT is where the main debate is and what will determine when you decide details as when to start a horse will be sorted out and good luck with it, it can become a life long personal debate, the more you learn.
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It might be good to keep in mind, but as a person who got funding from the Kansas Racing Commission, they had zero input into the study or the results. In general, they want to know. They want to know how to improve the sport. My studies were on EIPH, but I had friends working on studies on breakdowns and track injuries. Their results were not biased by the funding agency in any way
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I do think that there might be problems if the consensus said “they shouldn’t race until they are older, but light training is ok”. It’s expensive to race horses, and they want ROI as soon as possible.
I just take it all with a grain of salt.
Even if they don’t directly try to influence results, if the results are not favorable to their status quo or best money making endeavor, you may not receive funding again.
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I think the problem that I have is that a lot of the “black and white” statements are extrapolations based on incomplete data, and there are SO many variables with horses, their genetics and management that could impact bone structure. A real longitudinal study would take a lot of effort and time to control for all the variables that impact a horse’s soundness.
We say things like “we see an increase in ECVM or hock arthritis or whatever”, but our diagnostics are also better and we look for it now more than we did 30 years ago. It is no guarantee that our horses didn’t have these issues (and for most, we just kicked on and went - not saying it was right, just saying that it was).
Regarding the Deb Bennett article, there are a number of massive leaps of assumption in it. For instance, there’s an assumption that because the growth plate closures are incomplete, the horse’s way of going isn’t mature, and thus Barbaro broke his leg (obviously I’m paraphrasing because the PDF will not let me copy that section). That’s a huge leap in logic and it is not really explained even in the linked studies, although it sounds very persuasive because she states that it is so. People can be pretty darned persuasive that way. And @JB is correct, they’ve found a strong genetic link for lordosis in ASBs, including a significant number who were never ridden or trained.
This is not to say that I start my horses early - so I’m not necessarily arguing that we should start early, just that I wouldn’t rely on Deb Bennett’s article for my information.
I always started mine super lightly as 3 year olds, mostly because I’m a tall person, so even thin I’m not that light, and I don’t need to be sitting on anything that is still growing a lot. I always wanted the benefit of baby brain which is typically a little more compliant than teenage brain, without the impact on their bodies. I had read the research and found that it was lacking, so I hedged my bets and did it at the earliest possible time that I felt was “safe”.
I’ve seen a lot of new dissection work which is pretty cool, but you really have to be careful of the beliefs of the people doing the work. Sometimes their findings like “look at the fusion of the spinal processes, this horse MUST have had a poor fitting saddle, started early, or have been ridden by a heavy person” are awfully conjecture-filled. We just don’t have enough information yet.
We all have opinions about things, and that is fine. This is just one gray area that I can give my reasoning for and if someone does something else, I can’t really have a lot of input other than to have a pleasant discussion about it.
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This times 1000x.
I do think it’s ironic humans will go a hundred rounds over whether or not a horse is ready to be backed at 2, 3, 4, etc. when high school (and middle and elementary school) sports are a thing. They have wrestling for five year old kids for the love of everything. We send teenagers to the Olympics.
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The interesting thing here is that early training of gait patterns leads to more stable gaits later.
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Yes! This is the conclusion I’ve come to. And it does apply to racehorses and many show horses - they don’t get outside to move freely; the young dressage horses that are pushed up the levels and doing small circles very young; I’ve seen western trainers who have yearlings and 2 year olds lungeing (not in a round pen) on a very tight circle. So it happens across the spectrum.
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I’d gladly put Elon Musk on my retired GP horse. LOL He wouldn’t last 5 minutes.
I’m really not. You disagree, great! Someone else pointed out that Deb Bennett is not the expert I thought she was. I’m enjoying the discussion. I absolutely don’t want to argue with anyone. I also mentioned (perhaps you didn’t see it) that I have two good friends, trainers both, who start their horses at 2. Just because I don’t, doesn’t mean I think ill of them or argue with them. Everybody has their own methods. Believe me Cowboy_Girl - if I want to start an argument, I’ll do it with extreme snark and prejudice. I would be very interested in your point of view.
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And that’s exactly where I am. I’ve been training horses professionally for over 45 years. I continue to learn. That is why when I ran across this old Bennett article it interested me. I’m thinking now it hasn’t aged well. I’ve also read Dr. Nairn’s research about EVCM (a friend put a horse down recently because it was discovered that was the cause of his many issues).
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Never heard of the person who wrote the article you posted so I take their written words as just that, their opinion . I tend to go by what I know and have experienced in my life( good or bad).
If lightly backing a late 2yo is damaging then all 2yo’s who were ridden would be damaged.
As with any horse you have to take the individual into consideration and what they may be physically & mentally able to handle.
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I loved her in PH back in the day. Has she kept up?
I don’t know. I do know she still writes for Equus sometimes.
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For all the years people have put Dr. Bennett’s article up there as the gospel, I always wondered why she was the only one saying that, and why there hasn’t been more published about it. I guess the answer is probably lack of funding for research, but her credibility would be much higher if other experts came to the same conclusions.
As a 100lb experienced rider, I started quite a few 2 1/2 year olds for a small time warmblood breeder. About 3-4 per year for about 10 years. I usually worked with them for about 2 months before their new owner, or even a lesson student started riding them. That was just the way it was done. I knew some into their teens and they were still sound. I bought one of the last two year olds I was training back in 1996. She’ll turn 30 in two weeks. She was never lame with more than an abscess in her riding career. At almost 30 and retired, she’s definitely not 100% sound now, but she was trotting and cantering around the field with my other two earlier today and was not obviously off.
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I’ve known quite a few compared to my experience of very young QH horses, less than 5, that definitely weren’t started by 100 lb people and went right to roping, barrel patterns, “drills” or breeding that were used up and sore by the time they were 8-10. I live in a western world and I’m really leery of 3 or 4 year olds that are over-qualified.
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Everything I’ve ever had that was ridden as a 2 y/o that is lame as an older horse had pre-existing/genetic issues that likely would’ve affected them regardless.
My 17hh gelding with severe kissing spine and post-y hocks? He was ridden as a 2 y/o and unable to be ridden by 7 because he had too many issues (back, stifles, hocks, feet) to also add weight on him and ask him to perform.
My 26 y/o mare that’s from old working and roping lines? She was ridden as a 2 y/o and hasn’t ever been lame a day in her life.
My 14 y/o gelding that is an “uncle” to the other gelding? Ridden as a 2 y/o and still my primary show horse. Doesn’t have the genetic issues/conformation flaws the other one does.
I would actually say the bigger issue is how people are breeding horses and how that leads to unsoundness. If you have a mare that, due to structural issues, can’t be in a show pen by age 6… DO NOT MAKE HER A BROODMARE. If you have a racing TB that only started for a partial season, showed a lot of promise, and then broke down enough that it couldn’t continue sustaining the work load… DON’T TURN AROUND AND BREED IT. So many people take horses with a uterus that can’t sustain any other job and turn them into breeding animals, which is the absolute wrong thing to do… but that’s a soapbox in and of itself.
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I think you answered your own question from the first paragraph in your second paragraph.
She’s the only one (or at least the only high profile “expert”) saying what she’s saying because her conclusions don’t jive with endless numbers of first hand experiences.
There are MANY horses being started at 2 and 3 (and even earlier) who go on to soundly have long and useful careers. In casual observation, waiting to ride horses until they are mature doesn’t seem to make a marked difference in their soundness or longevity. If you had waited and started your 30 year old at 4 or 5, I’m pretty sure she’d be in the same state of age-related serviceable soundness now.
People always point to money as a motivator for starting horses early. But if waiting a few more years significantly boosted the odds of a longer and more profitable career, people would darn sure be doing it!
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Purely anecdotal, but my current greenie is the latest started horse I’ve had, he was started very briefly walk-trot at 5 then sat for a year and a half (had always lived out 24/7) before I got him and restarted him. It’s been a lot harder for him to figure out balance and build up the strength to carry a rider than any other horse I’ve worked with. Absolutely nothing physically wrong that we can find, he just didn’t develop with balancing himself and a rider. Granted, at least some of that could just be the draft in him, but I’m having to go waaaay slower than I’m used to for him. I now think there is something to be said for lightly starting a young horse so they grow up learning to carry a rider. The exact age and amount is so individual, I wouldn’t mind sitting or walking for a few minutes once or twice a week on a 2.5 year old that doesn’t look like an awkward yearling still for example. While I ADORE my gelding, if I had to choose between a horse very lightly started at 2 and one that hadn’t yet been ridden by, say, 4, I’d pick the 2 year old for sure.
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