Riding two Years old

[rothmpp]

@Arelle

IF they are mentally mature and sound, they need to go into a program as a long yearling/early 2 if you’re going to be serious.

Most serious people in the reining and breed worlds are going to quickly lose interest at anything 3+ that doesn’t have a basic handle on it. If the economy dumps and you need to sell, you will not get top dollar and you will not have as many interested parties.

Generally, something is wrong with a horse that isn’t under saddle at 2. Either it’s mentally immature, or it’s unsound - both are bad.

Wow. Just Wow. Not a dig at you in particular, but I seriously don’t think I could participate in a discipline that thinks a horse not under saddle in a substantive way at 2 must have something wrong with them.

I acknowledge that the reining/breed world is not my wheelhouse - but I guess I don’t see a long yearling as a horse that is physically mature enough to “go into a program” Like their knees aren’t necessarily closed. And like people, some 2yos are just…mentally young. I’ve had horses that turn out to be the best performing horses that were not under saddle at all until late 2/early 3. Maybe not every horse is meant to be a futurity candidate, but that doesn’t mean they can’t be great at their job at 7.

And - if the economy dumps - you’re already not going to get top dollar for a horse in most circumstances.

I’m all for getting a horse a job, but I’m not all for there being a set time frame based only on calendar age. Maybe the horse was bred to be a futurity horse, but the horse doesn’t know what they were bred to do. I have a dressage trainer friend who breeds her own every other year. She had a mare about 10 years ago that on paper should have been an amazing dressage mount. She was not mentally suited for it, and was sold to an eventer. She’s had an amazing career as an eventer. That horse would have been miserable as a straight dressage horse and consequently probably not as successful.

I think getting them into a “program” where they learn to behave while not under saddle can be good, I’d hesistate to do too much circle work on the really young ones. It can be tough on their joints.

[sara78]

Well, my horses, were started AT two and with différent trainers and were all crippled After and quite soon. I was maybe unlucky or horses had issues before as i see many going on for longtime. But i wish i could know how to do right for my horses😭

[cardinale]

The PDF below probably has been cited multiple times in previous threads on this topic, but for anyone who hasn’t yet seen it, here it is. A few key points: there are growth plates not only in the knees, but almost every part of the skeleton; the cartilage converts to bone roughly from the ground up, with the spine among the last to do so; QHs are bred to “look” mature but mature skeletally at the same rate as other horses; you can do a lot with 2- & 3-YOs to “start” them, besides riding:
ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf (2.0 MB)

And, my takeaway from looking over the articles cited in support of working young horses is that the benefits come from exercise, e.g. the constant exercise young horses would experience in a group playing in a large pasture, not necessarily riding.

[Arelle]

Wow. Just Wow. Not a dig at you in particular, but I seriously don’t think I could participate in a discipline that thinks a horse not under saddle in a substantive way at 2 must have something wrong with them.

Not a dig at you in particular, but if your examples are dressage horses - why are you on the western sub forum?

There are studies that have shown that low impact, basic work as young horses sets them up for a better future as it builds bone density and can prevent long term unsoundness when done correctly. https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/145222/training-young-athletes I am not for hard programs where horses do an entire year on the road their 2 or 3 year old year, but the earlier they learn how to function, they better they tend to fare. It’s that old adage of teaching a horse well is the kindest gift you can give them - these people that let their horses just sit in fields semi-feral until they’re 5-10 years old are not doing them any favors.

If you read my post again, I don’t talk about long yearlings under saddle. I talk about long yearlings in a program where they live in a busy environment, learn to tie, learn to live in a stall, learn to longe, etc. It’s a mental program, not a physical one - because I agree with you - long yearlings are still too young to be under saddle.

And yes, there are some 2 year olds that are just mentally young. Those aren’t the type that reiners want because that mental immaturity means they don’t make futurities. It means that they lose money waiting for the horse to figure it out, and thus - it’s mentally immature and bad for business.

A 2 year old horse is roughly the same as a pre-teen human. More than old enough to handle some responsibilities like walking quietly under saddle, or loading the dishwasher.

[rothmpp]

@Arelle

Not a dig at you in particular, but if your examples are dressage horses - why are you on the western sub forum?

Because I don’t have give you my resume to participate in the conversation? You don’t know me or what I might have done with horses during my life. Just like I don’t know you and can only comment on what you write here.

The last example was of a dressage horse, but the started poorly barely 2yo that hurt me? QH started by a western trainer. My acquaintance that has burned her horses out by 5? QH & Appy circuits.

@Arelle

Generally, something is wrong with a horse that isn’t under saddle at 2. Either it’s mentally immature, or it’s unsound - both are bad.

Your words. Under saddle at 2. If not - something is either physically wrong or mentally wrong and that is bad. Your words.

I never said I think they should be left in a field to be semi-feral until 5-10. They need to be learning how to be solid citizens. I just don’t think they all or even most of them have “something wrong with them” if they are not under saddle at 2.

@Arelle

Those aren’t the type that reiners want because that mental immaturity means they don’t make futurities. It means that they lose money waiting for the horse to figure it out, and thus - it’s mentally immature and bad for business.

And thus demonstrating the reason that I have issue with futurities. Not working to get the longest, healthiest career for the horse possible, but to make money as a very young horse.

[Arlomine]

As far as Young Horse Programs, I am going to go out on a limb, and just say that Futurities, and the young FEI horse classes, and the young event horse classes are all populated by a small number of horses who “made it”. There is a wake of horses that didn’t make it behind them. Babies that less skilled trainers push because they want their moment in the Sun. Babies that are pushed because who wants to support/invest in them for another year? Babies whose owners are not horse people, and just do what they are told…And while some of those horses are appropriately conditioned and presented and come from programs that put the horse first, I am afraid that the whole idea of these programs foster decisions that are made based on the monetizing forces.
I couldn’t be involved in something that expects two year olds to be under saddle, and if they are not, it’s assumed there is something terribly wrong with them.

[candyappy]

In the late 70’s-80’s it was a common practice to start horses at 2. Nobody thought much about it and the majority of horses in general seemed to stay sound.

As a teenager I started my first horse as a 2 year old. I rode him most every day but kept riding light that first year. As time went on and I started more youngsters , most were 2 year olds ( if they belonged to someone else) but I came to prefer to back mine as 3 year olds. Especially if they were going to be big horses.

Mental capabilities, physical maturity and the weight of the rider all work together to determine what is in the horse’s best interests. I still prefer to start backing them when they turn 3.

[Clover5]

@cardinale I agree with all of this.

@Arlomine Agree with this as well. I’ve seen a depressing number of young horses run into the ground chasing ribbons and prize money. I know that in some circles, 2-4 year olds of are automatically given hock injections before even being started under saddle to ‘get ahead of the arthritis’ and keep them sound enough to get through the futurities.

[Bluey]

Three is generally a questionable age as far as training well.
At three horses are changing teeth, feel good one day and not so good another, parts are growing fast one week, causing some pain maybe, then settle for a couple weeks before next stretch, many changes, physically and mentally at three.

We either started horses at four, the old way, or later in the US most at two.
It was fine, any one way, just so you do what works best for your horse every day you work with it.
That knowledge matters more than what age any one horse may be.

Someone interested in how top reiner trainers handle colts, listen to some of the podcasts by Andrea Fappani interviewing other top trainers, Along for the Ride:

‎Along For The Ride with Andrea Fappani on Apple Podcasts

Very interesting how they go about it and how they go on with some horses and slow down and/or send home others not mature enough for their program and why.

[Bluey]

@cardinale

The PDF below probably has been cited multiple times in previous threads on this topic, but for anyone who hasn’t yet seen it, here it is. A few key points: there are growth plates not only in the knees, but almost every part of the skeleton; the cartilage converts to bone roughly from the ground up, with the spine among the last to do so; QHs are bred to “look” mature but mature skeletally at the same rate as other horses; you can do a lot with 2- & 3-YOs to “start” them, besides riding:
ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf (2.0 MB)

And, my takeaway from looking over the articles cited in support of working young horses is that the benefits come from exercise, e.g. the constant exercise young horses would experience in a group playing in a large pasture, not necessarily riding.

That old 2001 article, if you ask the author herself, would be written a bit different today.

While it is true that horse’s skeleton takes years to mature, so do other species, all of us grow up into what we will do all along as we grow up, don’t just sit around waiting to be wholly mature before we go on with our jobs.
That we wait until a horse is mature to train and ride it would be like turning all kids out to play only until they are 20 and then send them to schools and jobs, they are finally mostly an adult.
Right, that doesn’t make sense, we can and do learn much by doing all along as we grow and mature, same with horses.

The trouble with what some took that article to mean, not that we should be aware all along how we train, especially youngsters, but that we should practically not touch them until mature.
Also let’s not forget the very important part that good all around management is key, not only training, but all other, especially nutrition.
Our own feral horse was an example, caught and started under saddle at our best guess five, he had questionable knees, rickets, according to our vet, from maybe growing up in a drought during the time those were forming or closing and that impacted them negatively.

Here are some average charts how horse’s skeletons mature by age, that was the important research the author of the article provided:

[Djones]

Are there owners who ride babies into dust? Yep. The same can said of any owner riding a horse who should be resting and rehabilitating some nagging ouch at any age.

The horses I’ve encountered over my life that have real issues, were road-warrior sorts of horses who were just worked and or shown too damn hard year after year. Nowadays a lot of people are savvy to ice baths, massage, rest etc in a way that was unheard of 10 or more years ago.

[morningswithbert]

I bought my kid as a feedlot long yearling.

At two: Lots of ground work, tons of long lining and getting him used to being a horse… put your foot up, in a bucket, here’s crossties, let’s go on a walk w scary stuff. Let’s saddle up, what’s a bit? Ok mom, put a tarp a ground pole a series of cones to work thru. Long walks on the trail with bikes and dogs and shit. Hey kid I’m sitting on you, let’s trot a bit in the round pen.

Year three, can you turn to the left and right? oooh to the right is hard? easy kid, i’ll call the chiro if you’re not sure? Ok you’re fine, let’s try canter. When I push you w my leg, move. Good boy, thanks for not being mouthy sweetheart.

Year 4… we will see, eh?

[pryme_thyme]

It depends on the horse.

I myself believe in some work mid 2y/o year, working from the ground however. Instilling good obedience and helping to figure out how to use their bodies, ie. polework, starting to teach yielding to pressure etc.

I have done a ton of reading into how the body actually adapts and develops into workload. Bones gain greater density, joints stay more fluid etc. Though, there is a fine line and as a trainer you need to know where and when to quit.

Short sessions, keep it simple, no tight circles etc. Basically as though you were working up your training to do a marathon. You don’t just run a 5k on day one.

The spring before their 3y/o year is when I start backing and it’s always uneventful because they are comfortable in their environment and with me working around them.

Again sessions are short 15-20 minutes, lots of walking, (I think people disregard how much can be accomplished at the walk), large and loopy, poles etc.

At 3 they are doing 2-3 rides a week with a day or two of groundwork (I call it playtime), 20-30minutes top.

Over enough young horses you learn to feel when enough is enough. Some days it’s 10 minutes but you accomplished something, for instance it’s getting through the spooky corner quietly. Take the pressure off, boom your done.

Trained properly and with an educated rider with a light seat and aids I don’t see anything wrong with starting them under saddle as a late 2.5 year old. As in four months before their 3rd birthday.

The ones I’ve followed this method with have never had a lame day in their life with exception of a pasture scrape etc. A couple are in their mid teens now and doing very well at mid levels of the sport.

Though, there are exceptions of those horses that just aren’t mentally mature, like my Iberian filly. Those I take everything at half speed. She is mega athletic but crazy reactive by nature.

[Amy3996]

@Arlomine

As far as Young Horse Programs, I am going to go out on a limb, and just say that Futurities, and the young FEI horse classes, and the young event horse classes are all populated by a small number of horses who “made it”. There is a wake of horses that didn’t make it behind them. Babies that less skilled trainers push because they want their moment in the Sun.

I agree. I’ve seen 3 of those “futurity washouts” in the last year. 1 was euthanized at age 9 due to advanced arthritis and severe navicular. The second will either be retired to pasture or euthanized at 8 if current treatment efforts are unsuccessful. The third has been retired from reining at 4 due to arthritis. His hocks are already fused. All three were “in programs” for reining futurities at 2.

Young horses do need to have a foundation. But intense training and competition for young horses seems like asking for problems.

[sara78]

I agree, reining IS very hard on their joints and they are trained hard and soon. In many barns a 7 Years old IS an old one. What i also noticed but maybe i am wrong IS that quarter horses (i only know reining lines) have many issues even before starting thèm. I bought several weanlings that were crippled and had Bad x rays before even starting thèm. Maybe they do not breed today to thé most sound mares and studs?

[Spudsmyguy]

An acquaintance of mine does reining or used to. All of her horses were backed and in training at two. At least two of them had to be retired at 7 due to hock issues. One I know became a baby factory and I think she sold the others to trail homes.

[PaddockWood]

Starting at the bottom of page 8 on how the spine and base of neck are last to mature at age 6 an even as late as 8 in some Warmbloods. My next horse will be started at 5 or later. Has to help the odds of being sound and happy to be ridden much longer than what we typically see.
http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf

[sara78]

Yes, the same i had to do with my horses that i sent to training… Actually i sée some trainerd that are riding very hard horses and almost do not have injuries, i wish i knew how they do…

[TheHunterKid90]

There is a fine line between starting a 2 year old and lightly riding to encourage bone remodeling and starting a 2 year old and riding them like a broke mature horse.
Mine most all get started as 2 year olds but some older according to their own circumstances.
Scout x rays taken of all joints to make sure all growth plates are closed and no OCD’s. Also to get a baseline for front feet to help the farrier.
I have four 2 year olds I’m starting now. All are at a different point in their training. One is riding around the ranch, another is getting her first rides in a round pen setting, the other two are doing like riding in the arena.
We are obviously starting at two in hopes that they will be futurity horses but I’m looking for any signal the horse is giving me that he or she isn’t ready for the work load both mentally and physically. And that’s totally okay if they aren’t ready.

I can say that despite being started as 2 year olds, even the older horses still have lovely x rays and are still very sound and happy to do their job. It’s all in the management of each horses program and listening to their feedback.

[cutter99]

I have a 16 year old, who was bred, started and purchased from a university training program. They start them late January of their 2 year old year, and sell them the last weekend in April/ first weekend in May through a student run auction.

We got this horse home, and I never did much other than 5-10 rides on him per year until about 5 years ago, as I had another horse that was my cracker jack trail horse.

I sent him out for a refresher course of 60 days, and he has been sound and great minded. But, I know he was truly started right as my husband was part of the university training program for about 20 years.

I have a 24 year old that I might end up putting down this year, due to him being extremely arthritic in both knees. He is now to the point where he is hesitant to jog or lope, stands with his front legs splayed out to get comfortable, and is starting to camp out in the back for comfort as well. I have the vet coming out to discuss where we are at this point, and options. I honestly think the fact he is turned out 24/7 with a run in shed is a great part of what has kept him going as long as he has. He would not be able to move if kept in a stall.

He was started hard as a 2 year old, with the intention of showing him in either the OK or TX futurities as a cutter. He had a full sister, who won a big deal futurity a few years ahead of him, and they were hoping for another big win. He was broke, broke, broke when I bought him as a 4 year old, but did not have the mind set or the front end conformation to hold up as a cutter long term.

I used him as my turn back horse in the cutting pen and as a trail horse. No real hard pounding, and always kept in condition for the job he was asked to do.

Would he still be arthritic now had he not been a “futurity” horse? Possibly, due to not the best conformation.

I have a 3 1/2 year old I just sent out to get started 2 weeks ago. My trainer starts a fair amount of colts every year, and does not like starting 2 year olds. He was happy I waited with this horse, and the horse has done fantastic so far. He was mentally ready for the work, and it has showed in his attitude with everything he has been asked to do from trailer loading to working with a flag to saddling and having someone on his back.

The trainer has a 2 year old Appendix barrel bred horse there for starting right now. He is tall, over 16 hands, very narrow chested, and has tiny feet and bone structure. He is having a rough time with getting started, and the trainer recommended the owners take him home and let him mature, but that is not in their plans for this horse- sadly!

I just picked up a yearling half brother to the 3 1/2 year old this week. Again, will probably wait until he is after 3 to send him out.

Some of it is the horse, some of it is personal preference. I have learned that by buying youngsters and starting them when I feel they are ready works best for me.