Right stallion fit for my mare? Breeding an Eventer

[Cassy_s_Mom]

Hello!

Well, I just got some terrible news from my vet regarding a tendon injury on my mare. She raced 36 times and well into her 5 year old year. She has a repetitive stress injury on the left hind suspensery. I gave her a solid 4 months to try and rehab it but it looks like she isn’t going to hold up to what I’m hoping to use her for (CCI**** eventing). She’s a fantastic mare and now I’m looking at breeding her.

A client of mine is a repro vet and suggested the two Trakehner stallions above. I have to admit I know VERY little about Trakehners. I like the idea of Summertime because his son, Songline, was the Bundeschampion of the 6 year old Eventers in 2010. I couldn’t find much about Herzog but like what I see in photos.

I’m looking to breed a horse for me to do upper-level Eventing with. My mare is amazing…she’s brave and extremely athletic. I’d take her gaits and jump any day so I just don’t want to ruin what she already has. To be picky, I’d like a slightly shorter, more uphill build. She’s 17.0 hands and I know both of those stallions are close to that. I don’t REALLY want to breed a monster but 16.2-17.0 hands would be perfect for me.

She’s a full TB mare. I like that Summertime is about 20% TB blood and don’t love that Herzog doesn’t seem to have much blood.

Some info on my mare:
Pedigree: http://www.pedigreequery.com/lustres+image
Conformation shot: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kwzuTsV5YCE/T0Z4HQyf7MI/AAAAAAAAQHU/xcxc1gzPGBc/s912/Sheen%20Conformation%20011.jpg
Trot: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-rRdLwJoB_6E/T0Z4H0yJIMI/AAAAAAAAQHM/szk06twoBsM/s1024/Sheen%20Trot.jpg
Canter: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-NxjUB_I9OUE/T0Z4HbRS2uI/AAAAAAAAQHc/YGG9zucq2WE/s1024/Sheen%20Gallop.JPG
Jump: https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-7LQLhV8K1m8/T0Z4HKUJB8I/AAAAAAAAQHE/YHhgCDTZxlo/s720/Sheen%20Jump.jpg

Personality wise she’s super brave and self-assured. I don’t want to loose that. However, she can be overactive to sounds. Naturally though she wants to be a lazy horse so I wouldn’t mind a touch more work-ethic

Thoughts??

[Maren]

Both stallions were Bundeschampions in Germany and both have competed at ** level (short format). However, both have not yet produced eventers (too young). Why don’t you beed her to proven stallions in the US, like Windfall or Stiletto?
Both are excellent partners for TB mares, are available fresh and have a much different record (and also competed at that level and in the case of W, far beyond).
Just a thought.

[stolensilver]

Wise words Maren. Windfall was an Olympic eventer with a pedigree to match. There are few stallions who can equal his credentials for what the OP want to breed.

Summertime is beautiful but huge. He might have been almost 17hh when he was measured as a 2yo for his stallion grading!

I’ve seen both the Herzog’s (Herzog and Herzog von Nassau) who, if i remember correctly, have both won the Bundeschampionat in eventing. They’re nice stallions but haven’t gone on to the higher levels of eventing yet. Personally I’d pick Windfall. He’s proven his toughness both physically and mentally beyond any question and he is stunningly beautiful.

[aquafarms]

Some of the Summertime offspring I’ve seen are smaller, when I studied his dam line many esp. mares were very small but I know friends who have some very big ones, all colts or geldings though. Theres a stallion in Maine named Tradition that evented and has some offspring eventing and from the photos of your mare, he should cross well with her and theres a young stallion here in Florida Tate that might be a good cross, he’s a big boy, but with some heavy mare has thrown more modern offspring. But I have to agree with Maren and Stolensilver on this one this is the type of mare that would be excellent with Windfall.

[Graymaresrule]

If he’s still available

http://acornhillfarm.com/pallas_digion.html

Sire of Spring Along

[acottongim]

Links to the horses that have been mentioned:

Tradition: http://espritequestriancenter.com/tradition-page.htm
Tatendrang: www.emeraldacrestk.com
Windfall: http://www.newspringfarm.com/windfall/index.html
Stiletto: http://valhallatrakehner.com/stiletto.htm

[vineyridge]

If you can still find it, buy Fleetwater Opposition’s frozen. Just take a look at Opposition Buzz and fall in love. Best XC horse on the planet, IMO. I believe FO is registered Trak.

Your mare is stunning.

[Cassy_s_Mom]

Thanks guys! And thanks Viney- I’m partial but I agree

I’ve actually worked with a few Windfall babies and maybe I just had bad luck but they were both small (maybe 15.2) and unimpressive athletically.

Love the idea of Fleetwater Opposition. :yes:

I’m actually not married to the idea of a Trak. My short list right now is:
Bandaras
Pablito
Escudo II
Limonello
Jaguar Mail
And maybe Quite Nice. I want to consider Riverman but my mare already has a “difficult” streak and I’m not sure I want to risk adding to that.

The reason I was focusing on Summertime and Herzog is I have easy-access to the semen and I can trade training for the semen and repro vet stuff. A client of mine has frozen for Summertime, Herzog. She has frozen for other stallions from Hämelschenburg and Elmarshausen but those were her first two picks for what I want.

However, I think I can still trade repro work and have whatever semen shipped direct to them.

Maybe I should change the name of this thread…anyone have any experiences with my short list above?

[JB]

Gatsby

He does very well with TB mares :yes:

[EquineLVR]

Mighty Magic…

[vineyridge]

The only improvement that I can see that the mare needs is better pasterns and a less upright shoulder, so look for a stallion who can improve those JMHO.

Apparently a rather upright shoulder is a benefit in dressage, though.

[Cassy_s_Mom]

Tell me more viney…less upright? Maybe a touch longer?

I’ve worked with a Gatsby baby…he’s SUPER NICE but at 3 he’s already 17 hands and looks like he’ll keep growing. I’ve never heard of Mighty Magic…I’ll google him. Thanks!

[EquineLVR]

[QUOTE=Cassy’s Mom;6160761]
Tell me more viney…less upright? Maybe a touch longer?

I’ve worked with a Gatsby baby…he’s SUPER NICE but at 3 he’s already 17 hands and looks like he’ll keep growing. I’ve never heard of Mighty Magic…I’ll google him. Thanks![/QUOTE]

http://a-1performancesires.com/Holsteiner/MightyMagic.asp

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2011/06/mighty-magic-is-this-the-ultimate-eventing-sire/

[Cassy_s_Mom]

[QUOTE=EquineLVR;6160767]
http://a-1performancesires.com/Holsteiner/MightyMagic.asp

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2011/06/mighty-magic-is-this-the-ultimate-eventing-sire/[/QUOTE]

OH MY!! :eek::yes:

Isn’t my short list supposed to be getting SHORTER at this point?? What a nice boy!!!

[nsm]

Titulus, he is a beautiful athletic Trakehner stallion with world class eventing bloodlines. He had 2 sons represent him in the German Bundeschampion this year, one of them won a class. Another of his offspring was sold to a Olympic event rider.
He shows very successfully in the jumpers currently
Nancy

[vineyridge]

Don’t claim to be an expert; just parroting what I’ve been reading and seeing. Of course, it might just be the lighting on the conformation photograph that makes her shoulder not look very laid back.

Edited to add that the more I look at her shoulder in the action shots, the better the angles look to me. I think it may just be how the conformation photo comes up on my computer.

The horse’s legs don’t have a boney attachment to the rest of the horse. It’s all done with muscle, tendon and ligament and cartilage. So the angle of the scapula/humerus attachment is very important in how the horse moves. Upright versus sloping is judged on the angle of the scapula and also how it ties into the humerus. I’d think you’d be looking for a slightly more sloping scapula angle. According to General Chamberlin, you want an open angle where the scapula and humerus meet. He says that upright shoulders are benefits in showy gaits and sprinting. His diagram of a “trotter”'s shoulder shows a more horizontal humerus and a less oblique scapula.

Here’s what he has to say on shoulder conformation:

BEAUTIES
Oblique; long; flat; well-placed.

When oblique, the shoulder is usually joined to an upright arm, both being prime requisites for well balanced hunters, hacks, polo ponies, and jumpers. Let it be reiterated that this combination permits free, extended strides in all gaits, as well as ease and suppleness in checking quickly and lifting the forefeet. The horse so equipped does not seem to “fall forward” in moving, but remains balanced and graceful, even at fast gaits downhill. The more sloping the shoulder, the more easily it absorbs shocks. It should incline from sixty to fifty-five degrees or less with the horizontal.

Unfortunately with a well shaped shoulder, the arm is sometimes too horizontal. The great importance of studying the angles and relative lengths of the shoulder and arm as a unit cannot be too strongly emphasized. Often the ensemble appears excellent at a casual glance, but close study will disclose a shoulder too long with a relatively short arm, and the resulting stride will be short and choppy.

Pastern improvement you’d have to have for a 4* horse.

[Burgie]

[QUOTE=Cassy’s Mom;6160706]
Thanks guys! And thanks I’m actually not married to the idea of a Trak. My short list right now is:
Bandaras
Pablito
Escudo II
Limonello
Jaguar Mail
Maybe I should change the name of this thread…anyone have any experiences with my short list above?[/QUOTE]

I’m not a breeder nor eventer…

That said, I have a Pablito daughter whose perfect niche would probably be eventing, but I lack the cajones. Thus, jumpers for us.

I believe there is a Pablito son that was shortlisted for the Pan Am games.

Yup, here you go (scroll down to Pierre)
http://www.rainbowequus.com/Pablito_offspring.htm

[TrueColours]

I’ll second Titulus …

LOVE that stallion and love everything about him. He was on my short list one year but was unavailable at that time due to some personal issues with his owner that year

Cant say enough nice things about that stallion …

[EquineLVR]

there is also the new EH Buddenbrock - he has done eventing - he will be in the states…

there is a current thread on it…

[Lotta-b]

My friend bred her TB mare to Escudo II and the filly was absolutely beautiful. He did add some spunk as that mare passed on a temperament that was almost too quiet. It was the only foal my friend felt like keeping as the filly was so nice, and she normally bred to very high end commercial stallions. The filly was very sweet and a very quick learner.