Rob Gage

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@FiSk123 Thanks for the fair and thoughtful back and forth!

I came at this article as the wife of a someone who got an aerospace engineering degree, and the Aunt of a 17 year old who is submitting applications to MIT and Johns Hopkins for engineering programs as we speak.

So I did scoff at the notion of high school students truly studying engineering. But I was nit picking. I’m someone who is routinely guilty of nit picking. Lol.

I respect the experiences you have shared on this thread regarding first hand knowledge of abuse investigations. I have first hand knowledge of what it feels like to be a survivor. And I did experience traumatic bullying in high school… and I went to a pretty small well run private school. It happens.

I also have kids who are currently in public school, though my oldest is only now in middle school. My experience thus far is that there is a nationwide anti bullying push going on in our public schools these days. It’s intense. Bullying is going to happen… especially once kids are in high school. But it’s a significantly different environment than the one I experienced 20 years ago.

There also is a nationwide push in elementary, middle and high schools to interest kids in STEM fields, and support and encourage them to pursue STEM degrees and careers after high school. The push is even more intense for kids who are in any sort of advanced academic programming. My middle schooler is. Furthermore… there is a nationwide focus in education on supporting females pursuing STEM programs of study. I know this… because it’s a SIGNIFICANT advantage in terms of the college application process my niece is going through right now. High Schools that do have a good course selection focused on getting kids to think about pursuing STEM degrees down the road (apparently Tamburro’s high school fit that description)… well… it reflects positively on the educators there if they have female graduates in particular pursuing those degrees in college. How well kids are prepared for college and which college they attend are metrics which are tracked when determining how “excellent” a high school is, and how it is ranked nationally. Teachers and principals all know this. So I am having trouble with the story that they made no effort to rectify the situation to a point that Tamburro would have been able to continue with the class.

Rather than nit nit picking further… Or calling her a liar… will simply say that there is a degree of cognitive dissonance I am experiencing with it. If that makes sense.

@Pennywell Bay had a point that resonated with me earlier… about how we have a LOT of discussion going on regarding Safe Sport policies at this time. Particularly with those involved with hunters. A number of professionals are against these policies and claiming that it could all endanger their livelihoods. The op Ed was written by a minor who clearly has a strong relationship with her trainer. This 17 year old’s letter pleading for relaxed guidelines governing interactions between minors and adults, because of this story neatly illustrating the importance of these relationships, etc etc, well - It’s something that many of the influential industry professionals who are anti Safe Sport right now will undoubtably regard favorably. It’s also something that will resonate with a lot of people who had a crummy experience being bullied by bots in high school. It also will resonate with people who are sensitive to feminist concerns about women being underrepresented in STEM fields, and having reduced lifelong opportunities in our modern economy because of it.

I think the whole story struck me as curiously designed to please and resonate with MANY different parties and incorporate multiple topics of current social interest. The fact that the minor isn’t 100% clear on the actual guidelines she’s objecting to… It’s all a bit concerning to me. When kids REALLY want to please an important trainer in their life… While also keeping the parent removed from communications? That’s actually exactly the point of these guidelines… kids like this are at risk.

[ladyj79]

I’m a teacher, from a family of teachers. I have little doubt that if the teacher allowed this behaviour in class and the school counselor’s official guidance in response to graphic sexual bullying was to advise the girl to drop the class that this would be ready grounds for a lawsuit.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@ladyj79

I’m a teacher, from a family of teachers. I have little doubt that if the teacher allowed this behaviour in class and the school counselor’s official guidance in response to graphic sexual bullying was to advise the girl to drop the class that this would be ready grounds for a lawsuit.

If it was an engineering class in a college… it would be a Title IX issue for that college.

Which brings me back to the whole notion thatbyhis op Ed curiously incorporated multiple topics of significant social interest all into one story. There have been discussions about Title IX and “kangaroo” courts, etc on this thread as well as on Facebook. It’s come up in relation to Safe Sport proceedings and lifetime band being an extra judicial process…

I just find it all a little TOO neatly packaged and tied together. But I’m nit picking again…

[RugBug]

@FiSk123

I personally interpreted her being “forced” to drop out of the class as she either had to endure the bullying or leave. The nature of my profession may make me pessimistic, but I didn’t find the lack of action by the guidance counselor particularly odd. Considering that this was an example of “in-person” bullying and not online, there may not have been any physical evidence of the harassment. Furthermore, depending on who was present during the bullying, their may not have been any witnesses willing to step forward. I have plenty of clients who have had similar experiences at their school (usually in regards to retaliation for reporting a popular classmate, teacher, or coach for sexual abuse).

Thank you, once again, FiSK123 for your perspective. Your experience and posts have really been invaluable to this discussion.

I, too, took the comment about being “forced” to drop the class as her decision to go the path of least resistance. I’m not willing to paint the guidance counselor as incompetent or unaware of her job. I am willing to think that the writer was walked through a variety of options and what they would entail…and that she, as a 15 yr old adolescent who can think for herself and is [i]NOT[/i] a child with no idea of ramifications of choices/actions or abilities to make her own decisions, chose to drop the class. People don’t always choose to be the warrior for the cause/right…and they aren’t weak or victims for making that decision. When others decide to make them warrior? That’s just compounding the issue. We all want agency to fight our battles as we see fit, including 15 yr olds.

FWIW @Virginia Horse Mom - you may have not typed the words, ‘she’s a liar’, but for all intents and purposes, that is exactly what your post did. You called into question almost every aspect of her post. You insinuated that there were no ‘engineering’ classes, you posited that someone put her up to it and that it was made up.

Here’s the thing, we all go through those emotions when something challenges our perspective. We look for the holes so we don’t have to accept the other perspective. It’s not a bad thing. and perhaps you don’t need to accept this opinion for anything other than opinion, but you should understand your reaction to it is the same reaction that people were friends with Rob had to the news…and why many of them are fighting back so strongly. Why they needed the story fact-checked. Why it helped when HR came forward. Stop condemning them and stand in their shoes for a minute. Empathy is NOT endorsement.

[RugBug]

@Virginia Horse Mom

If it was an engineering class in a college… it would be a Title IX issue for that college.

Which brings me back to the whole notion thatbyhis op Ed curiously incorporated multiple topics of significant social interest all into one story. There have been discussions about Title IX and “kangaroo” courts, etc on this thread as well as on Facebook. It’s come up in relation to Safe Sport proceedings and lifetime band being an extra judicial process…

I just find it all a little TOO neatly packaged and tied together. But I’m nit picking again…

VHM - you are NOT nitpicking. With your statements above, you are implying, once again, that she’s lying. Just stop.

Honestly, you talk about all the holes in the story and then say it’s " too neatly packaged and tied together." So, which is it?

[YankeeDuchess]

@ladyj79

I’m a teacher, from a family of teachers. I have little doubt that if the teacher allowed this behaviour in class and the school counselor’s official guidance in response to graphic sexual bullying was to advise the girl to drop the class that this would be ready grounds for a lawsuit.

@ladyj79 - You spelled behavior with a u, suggesting you are from Canada, the U.K. or Australia. Are you saying that the incident would be grounds for a lawsuit in nonUS Anglo counties or in the US? I always assume the US is the most litigious place on earth.

[YankeeDuchess]

Originally posted by Dags
/

Finally, I pushed back HEAVILY on the story about catching kids falling off ponies, and my main point is this:

Violating a MAAP policy is not a SS sanctionable offense. They are best practices, designed to elevate professionalism across the board (sorely needed in this sport BTW), and protect both children AND TRAINERS. You do not get sat down for not copying another adult on a text. You do not get sat down for repositioning a rider’s leg. You do not get sat down for catching a child coming off a pony. You get sat down for claims of abuse & misconduct, at which point these suggested guidelines and your adherence to them will be assessed.

Therefore, anyone & everyone on the “But what about false allegations destroying trainer lives?!?!” train should be following MAAP policies to a Tee just to keep up their own pretenses. I would expect more moderate minds, that are confident that their behavior is above board, will be adopting the policies as the best they can and in accordance to their clients & real-life situations.

I have tried to make this point, but you said it better. This post should be reposted every page until people get it.

Much of the MAAP is essentially CYA insurance for adults. If you live in fear that you might get a SS sanction of some type, take out the insurance (follow best practices.) If you’re in the majority of trainers and adults who know they have nothing to fear from SS, relax already.

[Anniemaymay]

No one here is in a place to say if her andecdote is true or not. What matters is that COTH ran an op ed that presents false information about MAAP. Incredibly unethical.

[Sticky_Situation]

So wait … there are zero consequences for not following the MAAP policies as long as the policy violations don’t involve sexual misconduct, harassment, or abuse? They are only recommended practices and will not be enforced? If so, why does the MAAP document list a means of reporting violations?

If MAAP were presented as “recommended practices to protect both kids and adults” rather than “mandatory policies” I’d guess there would be less blowback.

(Note, I was never under the impression that people were going to be getting lifetime bans for giving a kid a ride to a horse show without a permission slip … but I had thought that since there was a system for reporting violations that members would probably at least get some sort of official warning if they were found to have violated MAAP)

[MHM]

@Anniemaymay

No one here is in a place to say if her andecdote is true or not. What matters is that COTH ran an op ed that presents false information about MAAP. Incredibly unethical.

So are you saying that if someone submits an op Ed to the Chronicle, they should go through it with a red pen before they publish it?

I took the op Ed as the viewpoint of one teenage girl, based on her experiences. Nothing more, nothing less.

[MHM]

Also, I seem to recall that the Chronicle was the first one to cover the backstory on Jimmy Williams, which kicked off this whole thing, and led to a big feature in the New York Times within the last couple of years. Not bad for a publication that covers horse sports.

[smoofox]

@Anniemaymay

No one here is in a place to say if her andecdote is true or not. What matters is that COTH ran an op ed that presents false information about MAAP. Incredibly unethical.

What part of “op ed” are people not understanding here? The OP stands for OPINION. Not facts. Nothing unethical about an OP ED that presents someone’s OPINION. As @MHM said, nothing more, nothing less.

[RugBug]

@Anniemaymay

No one here is in a place to say if her andecdote is true or not. What matters is that COTH ran an op ed that presents false information about MAAP. Incredibly unethical.

Since you understand the application of MAAP in all situations, can you please enlighten everyone else? I do see a few inaccuracies in the OpEd. I also see a lot that would fall under possible or probable interpretation.

Having spent time interpreting language like this, it’s not cut and dried.

[YankeeDuchess]

This is parallel to the discussion of hugs in the workplace. “Best practice” in the workplace is no touching beyond a handshake, and therefore do not hug a coworker, subordinate or superior.
However, failing to follow best practices does not automatically mean you’ve done something sanctionable; a hug in and of itself is not sexual harassment.
If you ARE in fact, harassing someone, the hug will make your case look worse. If you are not harassing anyone but are worried your interactions with a coworker might be misconstrued, you should probably refrain from hugging.
WRT SafeSport, if someone accuses you of abuse of a minor, you are in a stronger position if you have refrained from giving the child unpermitted car rides and if all your texts with the child include another adult.
The Victorians had the notion of the “compromising position.” Victorian etiquette dictated that you did not do certain things, and further, it was almost equally important that you did not put yourself in a compromising position - a situation which created the appearance that you might have violated the code of behavior.
I think of much of MAAP as a clear set of rules to follow if you want to avoid putting yourself in a compromising position. As such, they are there mostly to protect the adults.

   If SafeSport is getting thousands of reports of abuse each year, they obviously do not have time to issue a sanction, even if it is just a warning letter, to someone who has given a kid a ride to the tack shop, or sent a text to a kid without the cc to an adult. 

  As a trainer or AA I would not go on a road trip and stay at a hotel with a minor without another adult and whatever else the MAAP policies suggest. I would not want to put myself in a compromising position like that. 

   SafeSport and MAAP together say:

1. Don’t abuse minors (This part protects minors)
2. Don’t put yourself in a compromising position; here are some examples of compromising positions you probably want to avoid. (This part mostly protects adults.)

[Sticky_Situation]

I’m familiar with the concept of recommended/best practices, but that’s not how MAAP was initially presented to the community.

If MAAP is a list of best practices rather than mandatory policies which will be enforced, IMO it should be labeled as such and the part about “reporting violations” should be removed.

[YankeeDuchess]

@smoofox

What part of “op ed” are people not understanding here? The OP stands for OPINION. Not facts. Nothing unethical about an OP ED that presents someone’s OPINION. As @MHM said, nothing more, nothing less.

  There is a difference between stating your opinion of a reasonably accurate portrayal of the rules vs stating your opinion of a serious misrepresentation of the rules. That’s where it needs to be more factual.

[RainWeasley]

@YankeeDuchess

@ladyj79 - You spelled behavior with a u, suggesting you are from Canada, the U.K. or Australia. Are you saying that the incident would be grounds for a lawsuit in nonUS Anglo counties or in the US? I always assume the US is the most litigious place on earth.

I’ve spelled it both behavior and behaviour and I’ve never been out of the country (US) so not necessarily not from the US.

[Midge]

@Sticky Situation

I’m familiar with the concept of recommended/best practices, but that’s not how MAAP was initially presented to the community.

If MAAP is a list of best practices rather than mandatory policies which will be enforced, IMO it should be labeled as such and the part about “reporting violations” should be removed.

As I recall,there are two sections. One is mandatory and one is best practices. I’m going off the top of my head,though, so I might not have it exactly right.

[Anniemaymay]

@RugBug

Since you understand the application of MAAP in all situations, can you please enlighten everyone else? I do see a few inaccuracies in the OpEd. I also see a lot that would fall under possible or probable interpretation.

Having spent time interpreting language like this, it’s not cut and dried.

I didn’t say I understand the application of MAAP in all situations. I’m a new-ish parent in the sport. I said there was misinformation in the article, or “inaccuracies” as you yourself note. It’s a difficult situation with a lot of misinformation being spread, and they chose to further that. It’s a shame.

[Sticky_Situation]

@Midge

As I recall,there are two sections. One is mandatory and one is best practices. I’m going off the top of my head,though, so I might not have it exactly right.

As I understand it, the “best practices” part is applying the policies (such as never being alone with a minor in a situation that isn’t “observable and interruptible”) at all times rather than only at USEF shows and events. The social media/texting policy is mandatory for everyone at all times and is not listed as a “best practice.”