Rob Gage

She’s apologized and admitted she was harsh in her first assessment. I still don’t completely agree with her, but I appreciate that willingness to reflect.

I do feel that she’s looking for a full investigative article with a focus on the school’s potential (and assumed*) mishandling…but this was an piece on one teen’s perspective on how her interactions with adults at the barn helped her through the vary type of situation SS is trying to curtail…and how SS would limit her ability to have those relationships that she values so much.

If the piece was about the school and cupability, it’s very lacking. That wasn’t the focus no matter how much someone thinks it should have played a major role. Perhaps the COTH editors should have looked at it more closely to help avoid some of this controversy. I’m pretty sure it would have still been picked apart.

*I say assumed because we have NO details one way or another on how it was actually handled. We have an action and a result with a few high level bits of information happening somewhere in between.

Uh - that’s not at all why I am poking holes in her story.

I’m poking holes in her story because I see conspicuous skies with her story.

Do you not see conspicuous issues? Do you believe that a high school teacher allowed boys in a class to bully a girl in this manner, and did absolutely nothing about it, and the girl was forced to either put up with the behavior or withdraw from the class in order to avoid it?

Why would a teacher behave in that manner? Because they are sexist? Have a hearing problem? Because the engineering class was overcrowded and unruly and unmanageable? Yes… I’ll admit that last point on my part is a bit sarcastic… but seriously… do you really think that might have been the case? Engineering classes are not typically overcrowded… nor unruly. Seriously.

Why aren’t you curious about the answers to any of these questions? Do you think the Chronicle should have done any background fact checking prior to publishing her letter? If not… why not?

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So am I correct that some on this post actually think that that girl, Olivia, is not a real person? Google her. She is alive and well. For pete’s sake, this Rob Gage/safe sport post needs to die. It is beyond absurd.

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To me it appears that people are greying up what can be answered by a very simple black and white motto: when it comes to someone else’s personal space, don’t use a position of authority to facilitate a physical encounter and, no matter what level the relationship, always ask before touching and wait for confirmation before acting. Abide by the other person’s response.
[INDENT]1. If you want to give a hug, ask first. Say something like, “can I give you a hug?” or, “you did so well I could hug you, is that OK?” or, “I want to give you a hug but first want to make sure that there’s no misunderstanding that it’s because I’m just so proud of you…” or whatever floats your boat. If the person answers, “I’d rather you didn’t,” or, “I’m fine, thanks,” and shrugs or takes a step away, you have your answer. Unless you get a real confirmation (as in they reach out to you), don’t give the hug.

  1. If it’s not your kid, ask the parent’s permission before doing anything new with the kid. It’s common sense. Don’t drive off with someone’s kid. Don’t communicate with the kid behind the parent’s back. Don’t strike up a secret friendship. Given the modern environment, a text counts as getting it in writing. Duh.

  2. If you need to be with the child without the parent, ask another adult or child to come along.[/INDENT]

As for the article… 17 year olds are still within that extreme mindset where they use words to convey a level 10 emotional response when it may really be a 4 or 5. (I love him so much I’ll die if he doesn’t take me to prom!) “Forced” may have been she was uncomfortable to the point of not wanting to stick out the class. Furthermore, a 17 year may have been influenced by what she’s heard or misinterpreted what she’s been told and wrote a piece without fact checking first. Who knows, her parents or trainer may have helped her write it. As others have said, it’s an OpEd, not a new story.

It’s not uncommon for an OpEd to present a dissenting opinion. That’s why many media outlets carry them. It’s a chance to showcase an opinion outside of the media’s news approach. To say something they can’t otherwise print. Other COTH OPEds have covered everything from the high cost of showing to bad judging to drug rulings.

As for the legitimacy of the boys’ comments without a teacher intervening… I was terribly bullied in school. Junior high and high school. Boys said, well, not nice things. I was in an advanced and accelerated program with a wide topic range, including various tech and science classes. I can believe that the boys in the author’s class made lewd comments to the author. They said them to me when the teacher left. We were probably 11 in that particular group?

As far as the COTH, it has published some in-depth articles that were more akin to hard news than typical horse magazine pieces. The Jimmy Williams article and one on drugging (written by Mollie Bailey?) stand out from recent years’ issues.

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THIS.

EXACTLY THIS.

@RugBug - I don’t really want an investigative deep dive article on any of this. Nope. But I quite agitated this was published the way it was. The Chronicle could have done more background work, helped this 17 year old edit the language in her letter, etc etc.

Why didn’t they? Perhaps they did, and I am being unfair. But others do indeed see the issues I see from a journalistic and ethical perspective. These issues are absolutely avoidable.

The more I push on the issues with the letter… the more people seem to pop up arguing that is wrong to question the narrative… or state that the whole thing is really only about MAAP guidelines anyways so it doesn’t matter if there are issues with her personal narrative that just don’t make a lot of sense.

I honestly am perplexed by the fact that others who seem to want to support this young woman and seem inclined to agree with her perspective regarding the problems with the MAAP guidelines are not also pretty dissatisfied with the way COTH went about publishing this op Ed.

These are sensitive issues. The letter was written by a 17 year old. They should have handled it more carefully.

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Sure I can.

She said that according to MAAP rules, she is not allowed to ride with her trainer to the tack store if some equipment broke just before her class unless she gets written parental permission. That is not true.

You suggested an edit that would have made her statement true: change “ride” to “ride alone, one-on-one”. If so edited, we now have a true statement. This suggests, accurately, that written parental permission might not be necessary if there is another person along, but is still kind of incomplete. Beyond a true statement, I would have liked a fully complete characterization of the rule that says that either a second minor athlete or a second adult would waive the requirement of written parental permission.

For people who decide to follow the MAAP rules, when a minor needs to go to the tack shop at short notice, which of the allowable options do you think will be most frequently used: a) ask Susie if she wants to come along, too, b) ask for written parental permission by text, or c) trainer or driving age minor goes alone? I’m guessing a). Not only did she fail to mention a viable alternative to written parental permission, she failed to mention the option most likely to be used.

Remember that the opinion being expressed is that MAAP policies are too restrictive and burdensome and should be relaxed. It is vital that she bases her thesis on an accurate characterization of the rules. The actual rule is not as restrictive nor as burdensome as she represents it to be.

Whether it is due to confusion, misunderstanding, muddled writing, or forgetting to add the word “alone”, her essay contains a substantial misrepresentation of the rules. I agree with the editor and some others that COTH has made a serious misstep by not at least fact checking the article in terms of accuracy of her statements about MAAP; that would have been easy.

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No, I don’t really see conspicuous issues of the sort that would indicate she wasn’t telling the truth.

Having been bullied myself in high school, I see it as totally plausible that the bullies were basically just told to knock it off and given some sort of minor disciplinary action like detention. And the bullies will likely keep doing what they’ve been doing, but do a better job of hiding it from the teachers. And times have probably changed somewhat since my high school days, but I received plenty of well-meaning but useless advice to “ignore it,” even from my parents.

”Forced” may not have been the best word choice on her part, but I could reasonably believe she felt like her choices were either drop the course, or continue to face the kids that were tormenting her, even if they were no longer doing it out in the open.

And unless you’re planning on leaving that school, who wants to be known as the kid whose parents filed a law suit because you were getting picked on?

And as far the engineering course … my initial assumption was that it’s probably some sort of “Intro to Engineering” course so that kids could explore whether it was something they might want to pursue in the future, not that it was made up because it wasn’t something I’m familiar with.

I think it’s totally possible that two people might have similar experiences and yet come out with differing opinions in the end. And if I got nothing else from the Safe Sport training it was that we should believe victims, especially kids.

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As far as workplace and other hugs - my workplace has instituted an “ask permission to hug” policy. We mostly work remote and see each other only occasionally, so when we are in person there can be an interesting vibe of “I’ve known you forever even though we’ve not met in person” just as some of us have here on the COTH forums. Some people really want that hug and some people really don’t.

In general, I think that’s a good way to handle any of these cases. If you feel like a student might need a comforting hug, just ask, “Would you like a hug?” and go from there.

But the onus really needs to be on the hugger not to assume, not for the hug-ee to complain or object.

I’ve seen some pretty fun videos of preschooler daily welcoming rituals, where each student comes into the classroom and picks from one of four greeting options. In this case, hug, high-five, handshake, or fist-bump. I think that’s a super interesting way to remind us new ways to think about consent and autonomy, whether or not those would be the choices on offer.

https://tiphero.com/preschools-daily-ritual

Sometimes these new ways of thinking end up strengthening our programs.

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I’ve been skimming some of the posts about this ridiculous COTH op ed., but I’d just like to say that as a teenager, I was expected to get myself to the tack shop if necessary if something happened right before a class. Walk over to one of the trailers at the horse show. Of at 17, drive yourself somewhere. Who needs their trainer to hold their hand in the tack shop at this age? Especially to replace something. Take it with you. Find another one. And, perhaps it’s a lesson learned to have some back ups on hand already. I had one student who was sort of in this situation, and I believe she still felt overwhelmed, and so she took her mom to the tack store. I was busy with other hoses. BTW, she was over 18 at this time but I still wasn’t going to go hold her hand in the tack store to get a new pair of reins.

Back before texting, we were all connected by walkie-talkies at shows. Is it more burdensome to include someone else in a text about when your class goes than it is to say the same thing over a channel a dozen people might be listening to?

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You are not correct.

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@Teramit - You said of the essay, “It’s an OpEd, not a new[s] story.” If what you mean by this is that because it is vehicle for expressing an opinion, that somehow excuses the author if she plays a little fast and loose with the facts, I completely disagree. She is presenting her opinion but whatever statements she presents as fact need to be, well, facts.

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Agree with this. If the sky is blue with no clouds, you cannot state your opinion that the sky is red, or cloudy, or whatever. You can state your opinion that it might rain later, even if there are no clouds.

I had no issues with taking an engineering class in HS, or feeling like the best option was to drop the course. I interpreted “forced to drop” as deciding that was the best option, but agree with the poster that it could have been stated more clearly. At some point while reading an article, if there are too many questions you start to question things you might not have otherwise, if that makes any sense.

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For me, it’s more about what the Chronicle DIDN’T publish. So far, the Chronicle’s pieces on Safe Sport have been based on waffling and speculation and given little concrete information. No offense to the junior author in question, but I’d much rather hear from an expert in the field. For example, an article written by someone with real life professional experience handling abuse of minor athletes. I think that would really help people process why Safe Sport (or any other program intending to prevent sex abuse) has to work the way it works.

Right now there is still so much misinformation out there. Every day I run into people who are parroting back misinformation and straw man arguments that have been spread by BN and others who are either ignorant or on a crusade to discredit Safe Sport in order to protect themselves. Even some normally very reputable people are being taken in by the rumors.

What the equestrian community really needs is an article by someone who can help us all take a step back and process the factual truth of how the system works. It would be helpful to have an explanation by a credible, informed person as to why the SS system NEEDS to work the way it does, and if there are issues, how we can solve them–or why we might consider accepting them when the benefit is children being protected from abuse. There are a lot of people out there who don’t understand grooming, power imbalances in relationships, or why relying on law enforcement is ineffective. We need to be hearing from experts who can discuss the policies, discuss how trainers and clients both can improve the professionalism of their interactions, and how we can all work towards creating an environment that protects our minor athletes from abuse.

I can tell you why the Chronicle is refusing to take a stand on this issue. Because important people in the industry don’t want Safe Sport telling them what to do and don’t want to be at risk for being punished for past misdeeds. Only in the horse industry would a magazine be at risk for losing readership due to standing up against the sexual abuse of minors.

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Opinion is just that, opinion. I’ve read many OpEds in large media outlets that play fast and loose with the facts simply because they support the author’s opinion. Yes, if I want to say the sky is red, I can say the sky is red in my OpEd piece, even if the reality is blue. In my opinion, it’s red. I can say the sky is red and cloudy and indicative of the end of the world. I can say the sky is red and cloudy and indicative of the end of the world and was brought about by the hate spewed by RG supporters on social media. It’s my opinion.

There are talk shows on TV news channels that spew misinformation all the time. Daily, in fact. Those are basically TV’s OpEd pieces.

I think the main point to take home is that the burden of believing or disbelieving in someone else’s opinion falls upon the reader. If something is a news story it is by definition supposed to be just the facts. If it’s more of an editorial piece it can have a little embellishment and move into puff territory. But OpEd? It’s up to you to decide if it’s real or not.

p.s. it’s Tiramit, not Teramit. Wouldn’t want you to take liberties with my screen name or anything… Let’s keep things real, here.

A middle school teacher was just sentenced to 20 years in prison for having sex with her 6th grade student. At least THREE other students went to the school principal, with information about this situation. His response? Told them to stop spreading rumors. https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/southwest-valley/2019/07/12/teacher-brittany-zamora-sentenced-molesting-student/1693827001/

Law suit? YES - in process. BUT THIS DOES NOT change the fact that yes, sometimes people in positions of authority do NOT do the right thing.

Let’s stop arguing about who did or did not force her to drop the class, if the class exists, what it is called, and what her parents should or did or did not do. Those facts are not material here. Her statements about MAAP are the topic.

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I think there are a lot of people who agree with you; I strongly disagree with you.

If you think that an OpEd can have some “embellishment”, and it’s OK to say that the sky is red when it is actually blue, and it’s up to the reader to “decide if it’s true or not”, what is your interpretation of people piling on VHM for saying she has doubts about the anecdote?

  Do you remember when someone posted a slowed down clip of Nancy Pelosi on Facebook which made her sound drunk?  Facebook refused to take it down, saying that they did not require posts to be true. Well, yeah, that’s what makes it Facebook. 

   A real publication like the WSJ would have fact checked the article, and when they had found a significant number of “embellishments” or pieces of innocent “misinterpretation” or poorly chosen words like “forced” to describe a decision to bail, would have stopped checking and spiked the piece. 

    I think it is unfortunate if COTH has decided that its journalistic standards are closer to Facebook than the WSJ.
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Regarding the question of the plausibility of the editorial, of why a counselor or a teacher (or HR) would not take appropriate action (even required action) when told about the harassing song —

From my own experience, not all counselors, teachers or HR reps are good at what they do. Especially in STEM-type settings.

A statement that is overly generalized, but nonetheless has decades of documentation behind it: STEM-type workplaces and school settings have had a reputation for not managing the human relations side of their tasks well at all. Not in every case, of course, but it is often a problem. These are technically-oriented organizations and tend to be a bit dense on handling human behavior. And because of this technical bias they sometimes also don’t do well at hiring the excellent HR help they desperately need, because they don’t know how to evaluate HR skills, or how to compensate and retain HR strength.

Just as an example you can Google the lawsuit by female Google employees against Google. The suit has had some reversals in court, but what matters most is that there were enough women who felt the way they did about their Google employment experience to file it in the first place.

I have watched professionals in technical job fields, both management and HR, simply freeze up when confronted with more serious human issues, from sexual harassment to bad bosses. They may have a manual telling them what to do, but they can’t seem to do it. In some cases they promise to follow up but never do (endless procrastination). In some cases they may try to push the problem back on the complainant to manage on their own. In some cases they just mumble, shuffle papers, try to end the meeting quickly (easy to do if no meaningful dialog is occurring) and then forget it.

The complainant never gets an answer and the harassers or bad bosses realize that no action is coming. In fact, the source of the problem may not even see that their behavior is a problem.

I’m not saying all technical workplaces and schools are like this. But there are some that are terribly ineffectual at managing issues such as the one described.

As to the behavior itself, what Olivia describes sounds fairly typical of less-mature teenage boys whose brains are still in the stage that only a mother could love. Even professionals in child development admit that early-teen boys are some of the crudest and least sensitive creatures adding to the coping burdens of the human race. They can be sweet, too, of course, but many are in dire need of good guidance.

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Technical software point on COTH forum posts being eaten … Actually, they are probably being delayed somehow, but not lost. I read through the last portion of this thread just this evening, and every one of the posts that VHM mentions in a later post as having been eaten are in fact posted.

Just for what it is worth. :slight_smile:

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@YankeeDuchess, It’s completely fine with me if you disagree. You are entitled to your opinion.

Your disagreement doesn’t change the fact that OpEd pieces can re-create and add-on to the truth to make their point, if that’s the author’s opinion.

Unfortunately linking to the original article won’t help as one must have a subscription to read it, but on July 11th the Washington Post published an OpEd review of the new Lion King that claimed it was nothing more than white supremacist fascist propaganda. The author claims the movie displays explicit Nazi iconography. The Disney movie, The Lion King.

If you want to sign up for a free trial you can read the article yourself. This link quotes from the piece. Google the story if you don’t believe me.

Do we really think Disney would take one of its most beloved stories and create a Nazi-fueled, fascist piece to indoctrinate young children around the world? No. Are the examples and interpretations of the film’s motives cited in the OpEd facts? No. Is it his opinion, yes. Was it published? Yes.

I dare say the Washington Post qualifies as a news outlet, wouldn’t you?

Thank you for the heads up on the software issue. This began to happen to my posts a while ago… mostly when I include links to anything. I was told it was because the forums had identified stuff I posted as possible spam … I guess I was including lots of links in my posts :rolleyes:

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