That was kind of my point for even saying anything. I don’t know why I even tried to step in, because it’s not like I really believe that any “level of severity” actually matters and now I am apparently part of the problem because I tried to look at what others were trying to say. But Denali’s language toward others really, really bothered me. I don’t get how insulting everyone is going to change the way anyone thinks. I understand that she (?) works with victims a lot, and that’s so great that she is there to help and I’m sure it’s horrifying hearing the stories. I know it’s an emotionally charged subject, especially when you see it firsthand all the time. But if this culture is going to be changed, it needs to be changed by helping people adjust the way they think and view things, not by telling them how disgusting they are and how they are the problem. All that will do is shut people down and make them not want to listen to ANYTHING that person says.
These Safe Sport threads have been happening for a while now with the same people pushing back. And by a while I mean before you started your account here in CoTH.
The hard truth is, minimizing a minor getting sexually assaulted in their sleep by saying well he stopped when she woke up and said no, is part of the problem.
Playing devils advocate on this subject is not necessary IMO. We are striving for a cultural change.
ETA: The same people saying “well at least he stopped” are the same ones that criticized Virginia Horse Mom for her dissection if the junior rider’s OpEd piece in CoTH. That’s some hypocrisy. It’s not okay to dissect the stories of minors.
I didn’t know that. Good to know, that it’s the same people.
And honestly, it all disgusts me too. It really, really does. I just could see how some people would question the story, just from the stuff I saw when I was that age, and knowing the guys and how they were thinking in situations kind of similar, not the crawling into bed with someone that didn’t show any prior interest part but other parts. Reading that he had done that multiple times though, and NOT always stopped, changes the whole story.
As much as it pains me, the people saying/implying “it wasn’t that bad” are legally correct as in the law does differentiate rape in some states (I am not a lawyer but I work with victims) by forcible compulsion, mental incapacity, physically helpless and consent (which wouldn’t be rape) and categorizes in First, Second, Third (and 4th in Wisconsin for example) degree rape. 4th degree rape in that state covers any non-consensual sexual contact short of intercourse- that includes groping.
The story with the figure skater is talking about sexual assault which is a broad term referring to sexual contact or behavior that occurs without explicit consent of the victim (attempted rape, fondling, unwanted sexual touching etc) and also can include rape by definition as penetration (state dependent).
People- force isn’t just being grabbed on the street and raped or assaulted in an alley. We are talking emotional coercion, psychological force, manipulation or just plain jumping in to bed and assuming someone is going to say yes.
Legally, the law can pocket and purse severity and punishment. A group such as USEF and those involved in SS do not have that luxury. If someone is proven to have “only” fondled someone as opposed to a blitz rape and allows them to operate within the organization and they fondle or rape someone else- that is a liability on the organization. They really have zero choice but to say “Sexual assault of any kind- you are banned”- IMO.
As for the “isn’t that bad”, I would not want my daughter to go through any of the above. I have worked with survivors whose family have unknowingly diminished their trauma by saying “At least she/he wasn’t raped.” Yes- yes of course. This doesn’t diminish the psychological damage that can last for years. It is like that saying “if that’s the worst thing that happens to you- consider yourself lucky.”
My personal example (not rape or assault related) was I was the victim of a drunk driver. The accident broke my neck, I lost a chunk of my ulna, lost pieces of my lower jaw, upper jaw, teeth, have facial paralysis and went through over 100 surgeries over the course of the 15 years of reconstruction. Yes- it took that long. I have had well-meaning people say “At least you can walk” and “wow- it could have been so much worse.”
Yes, yes it could have. Not many people break C2 and come out riding, running and participating in sports. I am indeed very lucky. It doesn’t erase the time that I had not enough jaw to have teeth or even denture appliances, going out in public with a mask on so people wouldn’t see it. Or all of the bone grafts, 3 of which failed, or to this day not wanting to have my picture taken because I CAN SEE the moderate paralysis when I smile.
So yeah- let’s not diminish by “it wasn’t that bad” or “it could have been worse”.
Once should be enough. Him stopping when she became conscious means nothing. She was asleep and a minor. It doesn’t matter that he stopped. It shouldn’t matter.
Not to step back into something that was an utter train wreck… but I do want to make a note that the story I dissected contained an allegation that boys made up a song about a girl and her horse, and harassed her with it.
I dissected the story not to attack the girl… but to point out that what was published in COTH was handled in an irresponsible manner.
However… I handled my issues with that op ed in a callous way that was insensitive with respect to the writer.
Some who pushed back on me did so because they were very upset with how I wrote about my opinions on that article… and issues with it. And I took their criticism on board.
Others… I believe the same folks you are referring too… got into an argument with me. The whole “believe all survivors” mantra was brought up and thrown in my face. And I was accused repeatedly of “attacking” a 17 year old girl.
I think the reaction from some of those folks is a matter of feeling defensive about the hunter jumper community in general, and the heat and criticism that community is taking in this thread. Rob Gage is one thing… that situation and information related to it has evolved over the course of several weeks…
But the continued rallying AGAINST Safe Sport and the continued advocating to change or relax MAAP guidelines because people in the hunter jumper community think it will be really hard to abide by these guidelines and run their business in the same old way?
It’s a really ugly look. Really ugly. We have story after story after story of people who were victimized as children by PREDATORS… and other people who are theoretically “professionals” in sports, or coaches who claim to act as a “mentor” to young people, who are all rallying AGAINST guidelines and Safe Sport… all of which in fact ARE intended to make sports safer and better and reduce incidences of sexual predation.
I’m aggravated with it (the pushback against SafeSport and MAAP). For sure. As are many people. It is indeed a sensitive and triggering topic for many many people.
I joined the Safe Sport Overhaul group on FB out of curiosity.
The reactions to this article on that page are unbelievable and classic victim shaming. Bonnie Navin’s and Vanessa Brown’s responses in particular are awful. “I’m still stuck on she went to a house party to drink at 17. She was old enough to know she was violating a law.” and “This reads like retired athlete who longs to be back in the spotlight and is feeling left out of the #metoo movement.”
So that’s what’s at the bottom of the slippery slope that starts with “It wasn’t that bad.”
Wow. Thank you for sharing this article Poltroon.
What a stunning, heartbreaking story. Especially about Victor and his death.
This actually dovetails with the point I was trying to make about trauma. These men, who share their experiences, were traumatized by them. The stories revealed in the article are not ones involving a “violent” or “forcible” assault.
However… the stories do involve PROFOUND psychological manipulation and exploitation. And this man committed sexual assault by fraud/deception and chose victims who were apparently by and large, apparently heterosexual.
I say this not to say anything pejorative about sexuality one way or another, or that people should feel shame over having certain experiences … but to point out that this was something that added a component of confusion, shame, and secrecy for the victims who did identify as heterosexual. And that DEFINITELY can compound the trauma a victim experiences. This dynamic in terms of a sexual assault involving something that is a societal “taboo” and secrecy and shame has been talked about at great length with respect to survivors of familial sexual abuse and incest. When abuse happens over a prolonged period… multiple times… or for an entire summer at camp like some of the boys in this story… it also can also compound and intensify the trauma that the victim experiences.
Earlier someone one said in a post “trauma is trauma” and we should respect and acknowledge it.
That is a major oversimplification.
Trauma is an individual experience. Psychologists and other mental health professionals have studied the traumatic impact of certain circumstances, and identified trends in terms of humans who have long term mental health consequences for the survivor. But even in terms of cases of circumstances with known trends… trauma is still an individual matter.
Grading any type of assault as more or less severe, and then assuming the trauma experienced in relation to that assault will have a direct correlation to the “severity” (uggh) … that’s ignorant. A survivor of a forcible rape at the hands of a stranger in a park might actually have fewer long term mental health challenges with PTSD than some of the boys in this story … it’s a really complicated thing.
Wow. I had a suspicion all the chatter on Facebook had gone underground after the pushback on this thread pointed it out. I didn’t see any public reaction on their public pages yesterday… but given how closely they linked the case of John Coughlin to that of Rob Gage… I knew it was probably being discussed in that group.
I hope people with kids who compete in hunters see this sort of stuff… and choose wisely with respect to who they have coaching their children and where they spend their money. Unreal.
Dear God. It’s amazing how people who like to think of themselves as at the high end of society are lower than the gutter.
Though I do think that there is a small part of magical thinking in that, if one does all the “right” things, one is safe from evil, so, in order to convince themself that they are safe, any person who is assaulted must be perceived as having done something “wrong” to invite it.
That’s so messed up…
Though to be fair, I haven’t really seen anyone say that it “wasn’t that bad” on here. People said that there are some situations that were technically worse, if you were so inclined to try to determine scales of awfulness, but no one said that it wasn’t bad. No one has even said that it was okay that the guy did it.
Definitely 17 year old girl goes to a party at a house of friends deserves to be assaulted in her sleep.
These people, man, they have no shame, no limits, no soul. I hope this is fading generationally and all these people just die off sooner rather than later.
As Oprah said of old racists, some people, you just have to wait for them to die.
@Virginia Horse Mom I hope you don’t mind that I used that example. My whole point was that 17 year old agreed that the Safe Sport and the MAAP policies needed a complete overhaul and were going to kill the sport. Of course you can’t dissect her experiences, and yet here they are dissecting this figure skaters experience. It’s mind boggling.
As as far as that Facebook group, is anyone really surprised?
@RainWeasley What was actually said, 5 pages earlier:
Does anyone else fine Ashley’s experience a bit in the gray area? …
Anyways, just struggling with this one. … can explain to me why I should be more bothered?
I think that sums up what I was feeling. “It didn’t seem that bad” … I guess I compare it to what I know some of my friends have been through.
…but that compared to other stories it doesn’t SOUND as bad (the guy could have kept going, for example).
…what feels like a lack of severity. . I hate to say it, but it seems minor in the grand scheme of assaults.
But you didn’t hear/see someone say “it wasn’t that bad?” Really?
Can you imagine how Ashley, or one of John Coughlin’s other victims would feel reading this?
And people wonder why I’m frustrated… but it’s a reoccurring theme. One of RG’s victims saw what was said on this thread by people insisting it was consensual and Safe Sport was out of line.
del
I don’t mind at all, and I am on the same page as you 
But I want to own that I did step in it a bit in terms of how I went about voicing my opinion with respect to the earlier OpEd.
The pushback I got for it was two fold… some was legitimate because they were upset with how I handled it.
Other pushback was coming from hunter people, who are defensive about anything and everything related to Safe Sport and MAAP guidelines, and want to argue about the “flaws” in the policies over and over and over… because it will all change their sport one way or another.
Those folks were EXCEPTIONALLY quick to defend the 17 year old writer of the op Ed, who was verbally harassed by boys in her school… and turned that into a. argument advocating for reducing/eliminating MAAP guidelines. Which was obviously tailor made for the hunter jumper community. They wanted to hoist me high for dissecting that whole thing …
But now we get to the matter of a figure skater being sexually assaulted, and there are arguments about the “severity” of it… etc.
I will say, that folks eventually got to a better spot with me after that portion of this thread. Which is healthy. I don’t like seeing other “tenacious” voices like yours attacked Denali, and people waving straw men and accusing others of black and white thinking, etc.
I have a #metoo anecdote of my own that may help put this into perspective:
I was 21. My housemates and I hosted an alcohol-infused house party. Early in the evening one of my housemates dared me to kiss his buddy. Buddy boy and I smirked and kissed. Party went on, with no more interaction between the two of us. I went off to sleep in my own room.
Later on that night, I woke up with someone on top of me kissing me with tongue involvement (yuck!). Assumed it was drunk buddy boy, so didn’t completely freak out, but was getting ready to tell him to knock it the F— off and leave me alone when I realized the intruder was an unknown to me grad student who had attended our party. I shoved him off me and yelled at him to get out of my room (he wasn’t wearing pants, BTW).
It took me until my 40’s to realize that what had happened that night was technically sexual assault. Sure, I wasn’t hurt, and I was able to get the guy to stop, but he still entered my room and used my body without my explicit consent. Even if the perpetrator had been the guy I knew, it still would have been wrong, the only thing I might have done differently was verbally tell him to stop before I got physical. And if my instinct had been to freeze up and hope he went away? God, that would have been so much worse.
I don’t care how much booze and flirting is involved, no one gets to just force themselves on another human being. No matter what interaction you had (or thought you had).
Denali6298, be truthful at least. Please show me where I say “well at least he stopped” as any type of justification?
I criticized VHM because she implied multiple times that the minor was a liar…and opined multiple times that she thought it was fabricated. She very clearly questioned the veracity of the incident and just about every detail of the OpEd.
You might have a valid point if there had been a conversation about the event, etc. but there wasn’t…at least not from me. So perhaps you can stop misrepresenting that conversation.
Oh, and if that wasn’t directed at me, fine. But I feel pretty confident this time.
Also, I don’t know how many times I can say it, but I actually agree with you for the most part. I know it makes it exciting to be able to label someone as the villian. It’s why this thread has added 4 more pages in less than 24 hours. It’s not that engaging when everyone agrees. It’s why people keep going to FB to add fuel to the fire of this thread. There’s not enough fuel on COTH. But I’m not the villian despite your continued attempts to paint me that way.
Where I don’t agree with you is that there are stupid questions, with the language you use, or that it’s a good tactic to come at someone who asks a questions from a judgmental and morally superior stance. I jumped in because @Janeway expressed some questions about the situation. I tried to sympathize with where she was coming from and perhaps understand why she might feel that way…of which my take away was nothing about ranking assaults although that was the rabbit hole we went down. It was this:
We’ve normalized assault to the point of feeling like a young man crawling into bed with a 17 yr old girl who is asleep and assaulting her isn’t really a big deal.
Resetting that isn’t about being disgusted and morally superior. That does nothing. It’s about trying to empathize and understand and present a different perspective that can be heard.
I’m certainly guilty of going down a rabbit hole that matters from a legal perspective but that can have ramifications in shutting down victims (thanks for pointing that out, @McGurk). I don’t feel like I need to shut that part of my perspective down and leave it to others, but I do need to be more thoughtful about how I express it.
So, yeah…
