Rob Gage

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Denali6298

So what gets someone an interim suspension is if the accusation, after an initial investigation, warrants the person being barred from participation because they are a danger. For example if a trainer makes creepy comments about minors looking nice but never goes beyond that they probably won’t get an temporary suspension. If the trainer instead is accused of sexual contact, with enough preliminary evidence that trainer will probably get a temporary suspension until the complete investigation is done.

You seem to be assuming they don’t gather evidence because they don’t publish it. They do. Police departments work cold cases all the time so it is possible to get a conviction after the fact. Same with Safe Sport.

Also, if it is recent law enforcement is called. Say my kid tells me she was molested by the trainer. If I call Safe Sport they will tell me to call the police, which obviously I would. Safe Sport will do their own investigation as well as the police. The courts could come back with a not guilty verdict or the trainer could plead out to a lessor offense. Safe Sport can and will ban that trainer.

The process is as transparent as possible. When someone faces child molestation charges in our criminal justice system, that case is sealed. The general public won’t know the evidence. Same with Safe Sport.

I get people looked the other way over a lot of stuff we now call out but it that didn’t make it okay or legal. The law is the law and you break it at your own risk. Is it kinda stupid two kids dating and having sex for a while are technically breaking the law in California because one turns 18 two months before the other? Yes. However I do not believe that was the only complaint against RG.

There is a lot being said and we have no way to know what is what since we aren’t privy to the details. My frustration with you and other posters is while you guys are saying we have no evidence to convict him in the court of public opinion, neither do his supporters to say he didn’t do it and repeat stuff being said online.

I have not once commented on his guilt or innocence. I do however take issue with people who repeatedly question the validity of Safe Sport because they want details the general public doesn’t even have access to in criminal trial.

Does that help? Do you have any more questions? I’m genuinely trying to help.

ETA: Say you no kidding walk in on your child getting raped by your trainer. Some how trainer is found not guilty. Safe Sport can still ban the trainer. That’s where it’s good and fills a hole.

This is an informative post.

[MHM]

@keepthelegend

So I read Mary Babick’s question and answer

Where was this? Link?

Thanks in advance.

[Peggy]

@MHM

Where was this? Link?

Thanks in advance.

https://www.theplaidhorse.com/2019/06/15/ushja-president-mary-babick-speaks-out-on-rob-gage-and-concerns-over-safe-sport/

[MHM]

Thanks, Peggy.

[Jumperwannabe]

@Gardenhorse

The SafeSport documentation says that one factor they consider in deciding on the sanction to impose is “Respondent’s voluntary disclosure of the offense(s), acceptance of responsibility for the misconduct, and/or cooperation in the Center’s process”

That’s what they did during the Salem witch hunts. Bear me out here. Confess…but we are still hanging you. He must have denied the allegations , hence the appeal. But his lack of admittance of guilt is why he was sanctioned. Since the case is pre-cell phone, unless there was a Polaroid, it’s still he said she said. Now when you build a case on lurid text messages, emails or things like that, the evidence is more clear. This is where I have an issue.

[Denali6298]

@Jumperwannabe

That’s what they did during the Salem witch hunts. Bear me out here. Confess…but we are still hanging you. He must have denied the allegations , hence the appeal. But his lack of admittance of guilt is why he was sanctioned. Since the case is pre-cell phone, unless there was a Polaroid, it’s still he said she said. Now when you build a case on lurid text messages, emails or things like that, the evidence is more clear. This is where I have an issue.

Or they had evidence to the contrary. Just a thought. Because you are young and don’t know about life before texts and emails, doesn’t mean there are not other types of evidence.

[OverandOnward]

I have finally read through this thread, and want to say ‘thank you’ to all those who have taken the time to share information and personal experiences that have filled out the picture of how SafeSport is working. I now have a much better understanding of what SafeSport is doing than is available on their website.

Why are reports from so long ago coming forward now? Possibly there is some context to this …

It was definitely a different time back in the 70’s-80’s, the period from which many allegations seem to originate. Certain horse barns and horse shows were a cesspool of risk to minors from one or more predators. As for parents and other adults, the public was not only woefully uneducated about the issues of child molestation, some were unaware or in denial that any such thing even existed. Children were not briefed about predators and were even more unaware than their parents. Many older kids were allowed to roam horse barns and large horse shows all on their own for hours at a time, even far into the evening, putting them further at risk.

Indeed, too many parents allowed their kids to travel to shows with trainers, shows that lasted for days, with the busy trainer as the only supervisor. The kids’ friends were going with the trainer and they wanted to go, too. I knew of trainers with 6 to 8 girls between 13 to 17 years old, sometimes a few boys included, who were with them without their parents.

These youngsters were thereby exposed to a large number of adults, in a labyrinth of show grounds, stalls and tack rooms. The tamest thing I heard gossiped about these largely unsupervised youngsters was underage drunkeness at gatherings on the grounds, in full view of other adults. Much more went on as well. What happened at the barn or at the horse show, stayed at the barn or at the horse show.

These situations in the horse world could be a happy hunting ground for predators, particularly in the more isolated tack rooms and stalls. During that era the lives of many victims changed trajectories, emotionally and in more concrete ways, as a result of sexual abuse that happened during their horse time. Their lives turned out differently than they would have had their been no sexual abuse.

Many victims never reported it for various reasons already detailed in this thread. If they did, they were likely to be told “I’m sure it was a misunderstanding!” They might be accused of making trouble for the poor trainer, for attention. Sometimes they were even accused of initiating the contact in an attempt to claim the affections of the trainer, only to find themselves rejected, and so they turned on the trainer, because “hormones”. Entirely fictionally. Even by their parents! Parents might even be embarrassed that their kid said such an ugly thing. As has been said, sometimes the aftermath was just as damaging to the victim as the molestation or rape. It was no wonder that many victims never said a word - or were never heard if they did.

The predator’s life did not change. Their life continued offering opportunities to take advantage of young riders (including young adults in some cases).

So it is no surprise to me that accusations from decades ago are coming forth now. I’d like to say Jimmy Williams was an isolated extreme case but I’m afraid it wasn’t. I’m sad that similar situations occurred from place to place in various parts of the country. The horse world of that era was a comfortable one for a predator that was good with horses and could charm the clients.

People “tell” after 30+ years (or 5, 10 or 20 …) because what happened to them still matters that much. It wasn’t just a temporary unpleasantness that didn’t make any real difference in their lives, as the people who feel they should say nothing seem to assume. The victims virtually never have anything to gain by reporting now and often a lot to lose. Often the victim fears the impact on the people who still today know the person accused and the accuser. Of course there will be shock and high emotion and taking sides irrationally. People who report do so for personal reasons. People who report do so because the burden has been all on them for all these years, and because they are still grieving what they lost - and because it matters.

There are shoes still drop out there, long-delayed time bombs that could still go off. Many victims will hold their silence, but it has to be expected that some will speak out.

How did Larry Nassar, Jerry Zandusky and so many other predators in youth sports get away with it for so many decades? Because everybody loved them. That’s how. Because they were such nice guys doing so much good for others. Red flags were ignored and the few reports went nowhere, for YEARS, because nobody could or would believe that such generous, upstanding people could ever hurt a child.

They were expert not only at grooming victims, but at grooming everyone else as well. But as we know now, it was all their cover story. They took advantage of the trust and access of youth sports. What they were doing was accessing victims for their own gratification.

Predatory behavior tends to follow a pattern and it’s one that works so well in so many cases. Perhaps the biggest payoff for the predator is the public denial and victim blaming that offers cover long after victims do find the courage to make a report.

I don’t know if Rob Gage fit this pattern or not, only what has been publicly shared about his case in the SafeSport system. But hopefully this wide-ranging discussion thread of SafeSport may help people with some context of the what and why of the reports of events from long ago that are only coming to light now.

[NCRider]

@Jumperwannabe

That’s what they did during the Salem witch hunts. Bear me out here. Confess…but we are still hanging you. He must have denied the allegations , hence the appeal. But his lack of admittance of guilt is why he was sanctioned. Since the case is pre-cell phone, unless there was a Polaroid, it’s still he said she said. Now when you build a case on lurid text messages, emails or things like that, the evidence is more clear. This is where I have an issue.

I really hope none of you people work with children or have children of your own because you would clearly turn a blind eye to abuse if it was reported to you about someone you like. I would bet my house that USEF has a sexual abuse of minors scandal coming that will make USA Gymnastics look like small potatoes. There are too many open secrets about trainers who “like them young”. There is too much social interaction involving alcohol and partying between adults and teenage students. There are too many trainers who marry their barely of age students. There are too many trainers who think its no big deal to use extra attention, additional rides, favored treatment, etc. etc. to essentially extort sexual favors from minors who are too young to consent. And there are clearly too many professionals and parents who would keep quiet about it. There are too many people invested in this stuff not having happened that they will never acknowledge that it happened. And until everyone involved in this acknowledges that it happens, it will keep happening at an alarming rate. People you like can do bad things. Why is that so hard to accept?

[Denali6298]

@NCRider

I really hope none of you people work with children or have children of your own because you would clearly turn a blind eye to abuse if it was reported to you about someone you like. I would bet my house that USEF has a sexual abuse of minors scandal coming that will make USA Gymnastics look like small potatoes. There are too many open secrets about trainers who “like them young”. There is too much social interaction involving alcohol and partying between adults and teenage students. There are too many trainers who marry their barely of age students. There are too many trainers who think its no big deal to use extra attention, additional rides, favored treatment, etc. etc. to essentially extort sexual favors from minors who are too young to consent. And there are clearly too many professionals and parents who would keep quiet about it. There are too many people invested in this stuff not having happened that they will never acknowledge that it happened. And until everyone involved in this acknowledges that it happens, it will keep happening at an alarming rate. People you like can do bad things. Why is that so hard to accept?

Very well said. [edit]

[Didi]

I think what everyone is missing here is NOT the sexual exploitation of minors. That is abhorrent and must be stopped. Period. I think the avenues to be discussed rationally are the other aspects of SafeSport. The “bullying” the “harassment” the “abuse of power,” Those are clearly gray areas. Sexual activity ? Done. Gone. Period. The others??? THOSE are what can lead to abuse/vindictiveness/unfairness. I am concerned.

[Jumperwannabe]

@NCRider

I really hope none of you people work with children or have children of your own because you would clearly turn a blind eye to abuse if it was reported to you about someone you like. I would bet my house that USEF has a sexual abuse of minors scandal coming that will make USA Gymnastics look like small potatoes. There are too many open secrets about trainers who “like them young”. There is too much social interaction involving alcohol and partying between adults and teenage students. There are too many trainers who marry their barely of age students. There are too many trainers who think its no big deal to use extra attention, additional rides, favored treatment, etc. etc. to essentially extort sexual favors from minors who are too young to consent. And there are clearly too many professionals and parents who would keep quiet about it. There are too many people invested in this stuff not having happened that they will never acknowledge that it happened. And until everyone involved in this acknowledges that it happens, it will keep happening at an alarming rate. People you like can do bad things. Why is that so hard to accept?

My biggest issue, my very biggest issue, is it was consensual. So if the victim had to live with a horrible secret and finally was able to verbalize it, that’s one thing. We don’t know the details. I dated a 24 year old (we ended up getting married) when I was 16-17. I’m not scarred. It was consensual. I’d do it again. So unless she felt forced and that he was forcing others, I’m scratching my head. It’s the age of this case that I can’t get over. It’s not that it isn’t valid but it’s where I’m hung up on a consensual case. And I knew the deal at 17. There’s no “you can’t make a mature decision” crap. I was there. I lived it.

[Jumperwannabe]

@Denali6298

Very well said. Posters like @Jumperwannabe don’t actually read they just puke up their opinions. And the are just that. A wanna be.

There’s no point in being nasty. I have not been. I have tried to give my history honestly and give discussion to this subject from my view point.

[OverandOnward]

@Jumperwannabe

My biggest issue, my very biggest issue, is it was consensual. So if the victim had to live with a horrible secret and finally was able to verbalize it, that’s one thing. We don’t know the details. I dated a 24 year old (we ended up getting married) when I was 16-17. I’m not scarred. It was consensual. I’d do it again. So unless she felt forced and that he was forcing others, I’m scratching my head. It’s the age of this case that I can’t get over. It’s not that it isn’t valid but it’s where I’m hung up on a consensual case. And I knew the deal at 17. There’s no “you can’t make a mature decision” crap. I was there. I lived it.

Are you referring to one of the RB reports (there was more than one)? How do you know these details?

If your information is from FB then there is no point in relying on it. Further back in this thread, a poster or two who have some insight directly from the investigation say that this is not the issue that SafeSport was addressing.

[Midge]

@Jumperwannabe

My biggest issue, my very biggest issue, is it was consensual. So if the victim had to live with a horrible secret and finally was able to verbalize it, that’s one thing. We don’t know the details. I dated a 24 year old (we ended up getting married) when I was 16-17. I’m not scarred. It was consensual. I’d do it again. So unless she felt forced and that he was forcing others, I’m scratching my head. It’s the age of this case that I can’t get over. It’s not that it isn’t valid but it’s where I’m hung up on a consensual case. And I knew the deal at 17. There’s no “you can’t make a mature decision” crap. I was there. I lived it.

So you’ve read the report?

[Jumperwannabe]

@OverandOnward

Are you referring to one of the RB reports (there was more than one)? How do you know these details?

If your information is from FB then there is no point in relying on it. Further back in this thread, a poster or two who have some insight directly from the investigation say that this is not the issue that SafeSport was addressing.

Lol, I’ll admit, Facebook.

[OverandOnward]

@Jumperwannabe

Lol, I’ll admit, Facebook.

Good news for you is that it isn’t about a case such as you describe. If you haven’t read the thread yet, I think that scanning it for the parts to read more thoroughly would give you some information that you may appreciate.

[Denali6298]

@Jumperwannabe

There’s no point in being nasty. I have not been. I have tried to give my history honestly and give discussion to this subject from my view point.

Which is based on assumptions not facts and you have the audacity to liken it to a dark time in history where people were murdered. Sorry I’m not polite to people who form opinions that are not based in fact and then relate being banned from a sport to being murdered.

[Texarkana]

@Jumperwannabe

My biggest issue, my very biggest issue, is it was consensual. So if the victim had to live with a horrible secret and finally was able to verbalize it, that’s one thing. We don’t know the details. I dated a 24 year old (we ended up getting married) when I was 16-17. I’m not scarred. It was consensual. I’d do it again. So unless she felt forced and that he was forcing others, I’m scratching my head. It’s the age of this case that I can’t get over. It’s not that it isn’t valid but it’s where I’m hung up on a consensual case. And I knew the deal at 17. There’s no “you can’t make a mature decision” crap. I was there. I lived it.

1. I do not understand why you are so certain it was consensual. Per SafeSport, there were multiple allegations. I do not want to turn this into a discussion disparaging the deceased, but I also believe anyone who has physical relationships with multiple minors to be deserving of further investigation. That is not healthy behavior.

2. In the case of truly consensual, otherwise healthy relationships, why would they be reported? Do you intend to report your relationship? I’m guessing not. A report has to be filed before an investigation starts and they don’t assign sanctions until they have collected evidence. I suppose someone could report out of bad blood, or a disapproving parent could report out of spite… but the verbiage of the SafeSport policies lead me to believe they would not slap someone with the maximum penalty in those cases for a past offense. Going forward, uh, agreeing not to engage in sex acts with minors is pretty standard business policy for any profession that involves working with minors. Welcome to the 21st century.

[OverandOnward]

@nycjumper

I find the backlash against safesport interesting. Coming from corporate world - the requirements aren’t particularly onerous. Don’t be alone with a minor. Cc a parent in a text or email. And don’t have a physical relationship with anyone under 18 or who is your student. If you want to date them, wait for them to be an adult and have them get a job with/ride with someone else first.

…

[This post is from way, way back in the distance of this thread … ]

Absolutely agree. When I first read the SS rules of contact with students, my first thought was ‘at last some professionalism in the horse world’.

Horse pros need to realize that the conduct rules are for THEIR protection, as well as the protection of the minors. Don’t be clueless and then get caught up in something that was preventable because of a casual dismissal of the SS standards.

For their own protection in the metoo era, if minors are an important part of a horse pro’s business, the horse pro would be well advised to find out about the standards of teacher-student conduct at the local schools, because that’s what both students and parents know and are likely to expect.

[Max123]

@OverandOnward

I have finally read through this thread, and want to say ‘thank you’ to all those who have taken the time to share information and personal experiences that have filled out the picture of how SafeSport is working. I now have a much better understanding of what SafeSport is doing than is available on their website.

Why are reports from so long ago coming forward now? Possibly there is some context to this …

It was definitely a different time back in the 70’s-80’s, the period from which many allegations seem to originate. Certain horse barns and horse shows were a cesspool of risk to minors from one or more predators. As for parents and other adults, the public was not only woefully uneducated about the issues of child molestation, some were unaware or in denial that any such thing even existed. Children were not briefed about predators and were even more unaware than their parents. Many older kids were allowed to roam horse barns and large horse shows all on their own for hours at a time, even far into the evening, putting them further at risk.

Indeed, too many parents allowed their kids to travel to shows with trainers, shows that lasted for days, with the busy trainer as the only supervisor. The kids’ friends were going with the trainer and they wanted to go, too. I knew of trainers with 6 to 8 girls between 13 to 17 years old, sometimes a few boys included, who were with them without their parents.

These youngsters were thereby exposed to a large number of adults, in a labyrinth of show grounds, stalls and tack rooms. The tamest thing I heard gossiped about these largely unsupervised youngsters was underage drunkeness at gatherings on the grounds, in full view of other adults. Much more went on as well. What happened at the barn or at the horse show, stayed at the barn or at the horse show.

These situations in the horse world could be a happy hunting ground for predators, particularly in the more isolated tack rooms and stalls. During that era the lives of many victims changed trajectories, emotionally and in more concrete ways, as a result of sexual abuse that happened during their horse time. Their lives turned out differently than they would have had their been no sexual abuse.

Many victims never reported it for various reasons already detailed in this thread. If they did, they were likely to be told “I’m sure it was a misunderstanding!” They might be accused of making trouble for the poor trainer, for attention. Sometimes they were even accused of initiating the contact in an attempt to claim the affections of the trainer, only to find themselves rejected, and so they turned on the trainer, because “hormones”. Entirely fictionally. Even by their parents! Parents might even be embarrassed that their kid said such an ugly thing. As has been said, sometimes the aftermath was just as damaging to the victim as the molestation or rape. It was no wonder that many victims never said a word - or were never heard if they did.

The predator’s life did not change. Their life continued offering opportunities to take advantage of young riders (including young adults in some cases).

So it is no surprise to me that accusations from decades ago are coming forth now. I’d like to say Jimmy Williams was an isolated extreme case but I’m afraid it wasn’t. I’m sad that similar situations occurred from place to place in various parts of the country. The horse world of that era was a comfortable one for a predator that was good with horses and could charm the clients.

People “tell” after 30+ years (or 5, 10 or 20 …) because what happened to them still matters that much. It wasn’t just a temporary unpleasantness that didn’t make any real difference in their lives, as the people who feel they should say nothing seem to assume. The victims virtually never have anything to gain by reporting now and often a lot to lose. Often the victim fears the impact on the people who still today know the person accused and the accuser. Of course there will be shock and high emotion and taking sides irrationally. People who report do so for personal reasons. People who report do so because the burden has been all on them for all these years, and because they are still grieving what they lost - and because it matters.

There are shoes still drop out there, long-delayed time bombs that could still go off. Many victims will hold their silence, but it has to be expected that some will speak out.

How did Larry Nassar, Jerry Zandusky and so many other predators in youth sports get away with it for so many decades? Because everybody loved them. That’s how. Because they were such nice guys doing so much good for others. Red flags were ignored and the few reports went nowhere, for YEARS, because nobody could or would believe that such generous, upstanding people could ever hurt a child.

They were expert not only at grooming victims, but at grooming everyone else as well. But as we know now, it was all their cover story. They took advantage of the trust and access of youth sports. What they were doing was accessing victims for their own gratification.

Predatory behavior tends to follow a pattern and it’s one that works so well in so many cases. Perhaps the biggest payoff for the predator is the public denial and victim blaming that offers cover long after victims do find the courage to make a report.

I don’t know if Rob Gage fit this pattern or not, only what has been publicly shared about his case in the SafeSport system. But hopefully this wide-ranging discussion thread of SafeSport may help people with some context of the what and why of the reports of events from long ago that are only coming to light now.

Thank you