Rob Gage

[oneequestrienne]

@Virginia Horse Mom

400 pages? Wow.

In other news… someone posted another long rant on Facebook that I just noticed. Because the REAL problem is Safe Sport and USEF.

Lots of noise coming from that guy. Unreal.

The louder they rant,…”me thinks he doth protest too much”…
Unfortunately, I believe I must add this disclaimer: No, I am not referring to people who think SS or the process could be improved somehow. Someone could reasonably have that opinion. After all, even at its best, no organization or human is perfect. I am, however, referring to the vitriolic hatred being spewed by the mob on social media. That is despicable.

[oneequestrienne]

@IPEsq

The players were eventually cleared and not kicked out of school. Yes it was a scandal, but the facts did come out.

But this is an example of how false (or true) accusations could affect someone’s life with or without Safe Sport. As lawyers, we are taught to be very careful about getting into disputes with clients over fees (when the client doesn’t want to pay) because that gives them a good excuse to run to the Bar and try to find some misconduct to complain about. And there could be a long list of little things that could get you temporarily sanctioned apart from the big transgressions.

I can’t help but think, welcome to the real world, horse people! Of course, since I do some coaching and training part time, maybe I am hyper sensitive to the possible consequences of my actions. My legal code of ethics follows me everywhere in life. So, if I did something that’s commonly complained about here like taking money for training rides that don’t happen, well, that’s the kind of dishonest conduct that could affect my law license. Yet people here just say, yeah that happens sometimes, maybe you should find a new trainer.

Why are we so worried about someone’s reputation who does something heinous? It doesn’t mean they weren’t talented or successful. But if the allegations are well founded, why shouldn’t they be held to the same standard as the rest of the world?

Yes. This.

[anotherera]

@RugBug

I just wanted to say, before we got too far from this, that I’m sorry to hear that you are also a victim. We may have a difference of opinion on things, but I hate hearing that you too have been there, done that. :no:

Seems like those that haven’t experienced sexual abuse in some way are the minority.

I think that this is a sad reminder that we haven’t evolved as much as we think. We’re still immersed in a patriarchal society, and all the garbage that comes with it. Personally, I’ve never encountered any type of sexual abuse or sexual harassment, although it seems that Barbra Streisand and I are the only ones to have avoided sexual harassment in the workplace, as it’s so prevalent. It’s really disturbing to know so many women have been taken advantage of. I really hope they all have gotten help and that their abuse doesn’t define them or control their lives.

[Keep_it_Simple]

@RugBug

Actually, I’m not struggling with wrapping my head around SafeSport. Just looking farther into the future than most will. Also recognizing that we’ve only heard one side. I’m really interested in hearing from GPJumper when they can talk. I’d love the hear from others that have been involved in investigations (as witnesses, etc)

For those wanting more details:
The process starts when a complaint is made.
The SS intake person contacts the person making the complaint and interviews them. Asking specific questions about the time, place, details of the abuse.
From there the intake person consults with their boss and a decision is made if it is significant enough for an interim suspension. At this point the other party is notified of the suspension as is the USEF.
The party accused (Responding Party) is given the initials, dates, location and a description of the allegations. The Responding Party can contact SS and get the name of the person that filed report.
SS assigns an investigator and all parties are interviewed. Each party can present whatever evidence they want during the investigatory process. When the investigator has interviewed all parties, including any additional people who filed reports, any additional witnesses provided by either party, he writes a report of his finding - includes all details of the interviews and any supporting documents (this includes letters of support from people, emails, victims statements, psychologist’s reports. etc) It is then reviewed by the director who makes his decision.
If the Responding Party is unhappy with the director’s decision, they can request an arbitration. This can be (1) just on the penalty. If they feel it is not appropriate given the accusation, or (2) Full merit Hearing. A full merit hearing basically restarts everything. The information in the director’s decision is only used if admitted into evidence.
Arbitration - Full merit: There are prehearing conference calls. Both sides are involved in choosing an arbitrator. SS uses JAMS https://www.jamsadr.com/ Both sides submit briefs. Both sides produce witness lists weeks before the scheduled arbitration. Both sides provide a list of evidence that they would like to submit. The arbitration is run similar to a court case. Both side present opening arguments, both sides present witnesses, and can cross examine (this may be different in some cases. The reporting party can request to only be questioned by the arbitrator and not the counsel of the Responding Party.) Closing arguments. The arbitrator then takes all evidence and within 2 weeks provides a written ruling. SS does not make it a policy to provide the Reporting Party with a copy of the ruling. They are told if the suspension was upheld or not.

Let me clear up a few points:

1. The Reporting party DOES NOT have their legal fees paid. Just like the accused, they are allowed an advisor. It can be a lawyer, it does not have to be one. The Reporting Party pays the cost for their advisor.
2. It is not a case of person A against person B. One party is Safesport, the other is the accused (Responding Party).
3. The person reporting is only a witness. They are NOT represented by SafeSport. They are NOT coached by the SafeSport lawyers. The SS lawyer makes contact a few days before the arbitration hearing.
4. The reporting party NOT provided information on the case. They do not get to see the evidence list, the opposing party’s witness list or any other information that is being presented at the hearing.
5. If there is an interim hearing, the same arbitrator will not be used for the Final arbitration.
6. Arbitrators are former lawyers and judges.
7. Arbitration testimony is under oath.

I am a supporter of a safe environment for kids. I disagree with the comment that most people on this board are either 100% SS or not. It is not black and white. Definitely there are areas that SS could improve. I do feel strongly that having an independent entity investigate and rule on these issue is needed.

[KellyS]

Many people have mentioned that those of us in work environments outside the horse world regularly go through training about sexual harassment, among other things, such as tech security. The training is time consuming and mandatory but no one complains because it’s part of the job.

Then you come over to the horse world and its all encompassing bubble and the amount of belly aching I’ve seen about SS is disturbing. Whether it’s simply doing the training or someone saying, “But he is such a nice guy,” there seems to be a lot of immaturity and ignorance coming from horse people who aren’t in touch with how the real world works.

I can’t comment on this situation in particular because I don’t know all the facts but the behavior on Facebook is appalling. It makes me glad I’m not supporting the HJ industry at all right now.

The “professionals” shooting their mouths off would never make it as professionals outside of the horse world with the attitudes I’m witnessing. They are a bunch of big fish in a very tiny pond and have forgotten that being a horse trainer doesn’t grant them special rights.

Finally, just because something happened 30 or so years ago doesn’t mean it was right back then. That’s a very poor defense for inappropriate and/or illegal behavior. When I was sexually assaulted, I didn’t need anyone to tell me it was wrong; I knew it in my gut.

[kashmere]

I am skipping many many pages to say this:

“underage consensual relationships” are NOT a thing. Quibble if you must about “what about if one person is 17 and one is 18 and the law says 18 what then?” - quibble away - but there is a REASON statutory laws exist. It is because, as a minor, you do not have the same capacity to consent because, very likely, you lack the context, foresight, and life experience that the older person in the “relationship” has, and you are very vulnerable to manipulation.

I am saying this as a person who was in a fully consensual relationship with someone 7 years older than me from the time I was a young teen til just before I turned 20. They were over 20 the entire time. Let me say in no uncertain terms that this “relationship” had an immeasurable, brutal, painful, negative impact on my life. I said yes to the whole thing and thought I knew what I was saying yes to. Turns out I was a child and my consent was meaningless. When I think back, from my perspective now as an adult, to some of the things this person did and said and how I was conditioned to respond I want to throw up.

I wont comment on the situation at hand in particulars because I don’t know anything, except to say: to the people who survived and were courageous enough to report - I believe you and support you, and the pain this man’s family and friends are going through right now are NOT your fault. Their pain is real and valid and they have to walk through it - but so is yours, and so do you, and you deserve peace out of this situation.

[poltroon]

@GPjumper

Safesport investigates ONE side before the interim suspension. The accused doesn’t even know they are accused until the first email and being named publicly. That is NOT an investigation and that IS how it went down for the case I’m involved with.
For example, the weekend the name of the minor was released, I was competing at a dressage show. His name was being discussed all over the horse and how USEF/Safesport released the name of a minor. If this minor had sponsorships/working student positions etc. it could absolutely affect their trajectory within the industry and basically force them to quit.

There is another local who was accused (badminton I believe) who was cleared but hasn’t competed since. It is pending civil litigation is the last I heard. You may think it’s just a club sport, but many have their entire lives based on it. Many other sports are not as willing to overlook the accusations the way equestrians are.

Can I point out this is exactly how the criminal justice system works too? And the police and DA don’t necessarily send you a courtesy email before they show up and take you to jail, regardless of your plans for the weekend.

[GPjumper]

@poltroon

Can I point out this is exactly how the criminal justice system works too? And the police and DA don’t necessarily send you a courtesy email before they show up and take you to jail, regardless of your plans for the weekend.

They also don’t release the names of minors…you can’t pick and chose here…

[goodmorning]

@GPjumper

They also don’t release the names of minors…you can’t pick and chose here…

Of course you can pick and choose - life is not binary. The judicial system sure isn’t perfect, its why things evolve. you take the good, try to remove the bad, and make things better. Releasing minors names is not good. Lets fix Safe Sport. It’s not perfect, but its a long overdue good start.

[poltroon]

@RugBug

Is this documented somewhere? Because that is not what the materials seem to indicate.

https://safesport.org/guides

Follow the link for

• What to expect: anonymity, confidentiality and privacy

snip:

NEED TO KNOW

This is the standard the Response & Resolution Office uses for its investigations. It means no information will be shared that does not need to be shared for the purpose of conducting a thorough investigation. This means that your identity and the information you provide or share is not protected and will be used if it absolutely must be used. For example, the Response & Resolution Office will disclose the identity of a Responding Party to the applicable national governing body when it receives notice of possible sexual misconduct. You may ask us to notify you if we have felt the need to share your identity or identifying information with others.

PRIVILEGE

Privilege is a legal protection for the information you provide. There are very specific instances under which the person to whom you give information is not allowed, under any circumstance, to share or testify to what you have told them. Your communication to the Response & Resolution Office is not privileged.

They basically say if you need confidentiality that you should seek other resources, and list some.

[RugBug]

@goodmorning

Lets fix Safe Sport. It’s not perfect, but its a long overdue good start.

So can we agree, at least on COTH, to not say that people that are voicing their concerns are against SafeSport…(unless they deserve it, of course)?

[oneequestrienne]

@kashmere

I am skipping many many pages to say this:

“underage consensual relationships” are NOT a thing. Quibble if you must about “what about if one person is 17 and one is 18 and the law says 18 what then?” - quibble away - but there is a REASON statutory laws exist. It is because, as a minor, you do not have the same capacity to consent because, very likely, you lack the context, foresight, and life experience that the older person in the “relationship” has, and you are very vulnerable to manipulation.

I am saying this as a person who was in a fully consensual relationship with someone 7 years older than me from the time I was a young teen til just before I turned 20. They were over 20 the entire time. Let me say in no uncertain terms that this “relationship” had an immeasurable, brutal, painful, negative impact on my life. I said yes to the whole thing and thought I knew what I was saying yes to. Turns out I was a child and my consent was meaningless. When I think back, from my perspective now as an adult, to some of the things this person did and said and how I was conditioned to respond I want to throw up.

I wont comment on the situation at hand in particulars because I don’t know anything, except to say: to the people who survived and were courageous enough to report - I believe you and support you, and the pain this man’s family and friends are going through right now are NOT your fault. Their pain is real and valid and they have to walk through it - but so is yours, and so do you, and you deserve peace out of this situation.

Thank you! You have accurately described exactly how I feel. I have felt like throwing up a lot in the last week. Putting something “out of your mind” doesn’t make it go away.

[oneequestrienne]

@RugBug

So can we agree, at least on COTH, to not say that people that are voicing their concerns are against SafeSport…(unless they deserve it, of course)?

Fine by me. 😉

[poltroon]

@GPjumper

They also don’t release the names of minors…you can’t pick and chose here…

I think that was an error, not a policy choice. The case that I’m aware of was a situation where the minor was the accused party. This I suspect was not something their original policy (or maybe their original software) truly contemplated and had a slot for.

The other challenge in these cases is when disclosing the adult perpetrator outs the victim. I saw this happen locally and it was heartrending to see people tear into a 14 year old girl and her family because the 18 year old boy got arrested.

So the idea that everyone’s cool with it somehow when law enforcement is involved… yeah not so much. Also probably not less career-destroying for the boy, if that’s what’s important to you.

[RugBug]

@poltroon

https://safesport.org/guides

Follow the link for

• What to expect: anonymity, confidentiality and privacy

snip:

They basically say if you need confidentiality that you should seek other resources, and list some.

In the same document, it talks about anonymity. If SS wont’ take action on anonymous reports, why doesn’t it say so right there? The most is says about anonymous reports is in the FAQ and that they may be difficult for them to investigate.

[h=4]Can I stay anonymous?[/h] Yes. Whether reporting online, email, or phone you may stay anonymous. Please note, however, this may make is difficult for SafeSport to investigate and we will not be able to follow-up with you if we have questions. For more information about anonymity, please review What to expect: anonymity, confidentiality, and privacy.

If no action is taken, as has been noted multiple times on this thread, why even allow it to be reported that way?

[GPjumper]

@goodmorning

Of course you can pick and choose - life is not binary. The judicial system sure isn’t perfect, its why things evolve. you take the good, try to remove the bad, and make things better. Releasing minors names is not good. Lets fix Safe Sport. It’s not perfect, but its a long overdue good start.

I never said I wanted to get rid of safesport. I’m pointing out it’s flaws. I’m a huge advocate for safesport. As I said earlier. A for effort D on execution. This has been something desperately needed.

[NoSuchPerson]

@GPjumper

They also don’t release the names of minors…you can’t pick and chose here…

You keep harping on this. It was one case that, as pointed out by another poster, fell somewhat outside the lines of a typical situation and which, by all accounts, even your own, once SafeSport realized the problem, they corrected. Yes, they made a mistake. That isn’t really an indictment of the system.

An unusual situation exposed a minor flaw in the system. They fixed it. End of story. It’s not a legitimate excuse to continue to attack the system.

[NoSuchPerson]

@RugBug

So can we agree, at least on COTH, to not say that people that are voicing their concerns are against SafeSport…(unless they deserve it, of course)?

Well, that’s the thing, isn’t it? Many of the people “voicing their concerns” roll in, guns blazing, full of complaints and criticisms without voicing any support at all for SafeSport.

It also annoys me when people lay out a laundry list of “concerns” without offering any viable options other than to say something like, “Well, I agree that we need to address this problem but this isn’t the way,” which is an entirely useless sort of statement.

[GPjumper]

@NoSuchPerson

You keep harping on this. It was one case that, as pointed out by another poster, fell somewhat outside the lines of a typical situation and which, by all accounts, even your own, once SafeSport realized the problem, they corrected. Yes, they made a mistake. That isn’t really an indictment of the system.

An unusual situation exposed a minor flaw in the system. They fixed it. End of story. It’s not a legitimate excuse to continue to attack the system.

As I said earlier, I can’t speak publicly as the case I am involved with is still pending a decision. When I can release the details and how safesport mishandled things, I will. Until then, I am not allowed to give details nor can I release any official Safesport correspondence. (One of their rules. Victims/theaccused/witnesses can not release information or they get the punishment.)

[Max123]

@RugBug

In the same document, it talks about anonymity. If SS wont’ take action on anonymous reports, why doesn’t it say so right there? The most is says about anonymous reports is in the FAQ and that they may be difficult for them to investigate.

If no action is taken, as has been noted multiple times on this thread, why even allow it to be reported that way?

Perhaps making that first call even if it is anonymous you can get questions answered, talk through your situation - someone to listen who isn’t going to judge you.