People overlook a lot of misbehavior when they think there is a benefit to them. They justify their actions because so and so is a great trainer, that the girl must have “asked for it”, that it was a misunderstanding, that he wouldn’t do it their child. Self delusion is very powerful. Look at how many people have tried to justify what may/may not have happened with Rob Gage. My favorite is, “times were different.” No, it was never okay to molest a 13 or 14 year old girl, at least not in the 70s.
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SafeSport specifically states:
“Age of consent laws vary from state-to-state. The U.S. Center for SafeSport considers anyone under the age of 18 to be a minor and prohibits any sexual contact between an adult and a minor where an imbalance of power exists (such as that between a coach and an athlete).”
That’s how they deal with the differing ages of consent.
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USEF has stated in the past that it keeps test samples on file in case new drug tests come out. They would then test older samples for illegal substances. Their reasoning is that the rule is on the books - no mood altering (or however it is stated) substances allowed - and if a horse is shown with a substance that can later be tested for, it was illegal under the rules at the time the sample was taken. So they’re not going back and testing for things that “weren’t on the banned substances list”, they’re testing for substances that were against the rule of no mood altering substances. Can’t remember how many years they said they would keep samples for, but I think it was something like 5 years. However, with all the issues of storage that came up in the LG case, they should have thrown everything out.
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Thank you for pointing this out. A big part of the problem is that people react emotionally on social media without knowing the facts, leading them to spread misinformation and attack survivors. And like @Bogie said, self-delusion is very powerful.
I remember a case in which a high school teacher was suspended after several accusations of sexual misconduct. The school community rallied behind him, including several of his colleagues. One of his most vocal supporters was a middle-aged female teacher and mother of two former students, who claimed that the girls who were accusing him must be vindictive liars, that the process was unfair, etc. all over social media. She also accused the girls of being cowards for not revealing their identities (i.e. she pretty much covered every page of the victim-blaming handbook).
Eventually he was arrested after the police collected enough evidence to prove that he had sexually assaulted a 14 year old girl 4 years prior to his suspension (IIRC he took a plea deal and got sentenced to 10-15 years in prison). That girl just so happened to be the youngest daughter of the female teacher. She never told her parents about the abuse (for obvious reasons) and only came forward after she had moved away from home for college. She ended up coming forward, publicly, on social media after his arrest. While the mother eventually deleted all of her rants and posted a public apology to all the survivors, her reputation never recovered and she was asked to resign from her position as a teacher. Her relationship with her youngest daughter is still very strained.
People will go to great lengths to defend people that they love and admire. Even if it means ignoring logic and potentially re-victimizing survivors of sexual abuse. It’s so sad.
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So I guess you think these old timers can still compete on Bute because they are grandfathered in to the old rules. How quaint.
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Bute isn’t illegal.
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Re the remark that sex between a 17 year old and an older adult would be legal in several states, but it wasn’t in CA where and when RG is accused of this …
IMO this is splitting hairs and dodging the issue. If it’s illegal in your state, you wait until all of the parties are of legal age. Or go elsewhere to where it is legal.
It isn’t less illegal because the law is different in another state. Speed limits are different in different states, and one abides by what is posted or suffers the ticket. Presently marijuana laws vary greatly between several states, and foolish ignorance of that fact can bring a prison sentence in the wrong jurisdiction.
Temporarily postponing a desire until both parties are of legal age would avoid all of the issues. That is clearly a far better outcome that taking the risk of the consequences of violating the law. And by law the burden of that decision falls on the age-qualified adult. And not for nothing, if it is truly a consensual, loving relationship, it will survive the delay.
Every adult capable of managing their own affairs is as aware of these laws as they are of the speed limit. If the burden of adhering to the laws of the state one is in is all that great, then people of sufficient means can consider relocating to a different, more permissive state (and anyone who can afford to be involved in horses has to be in that category).
I don’t get where the comparison between states is any sort of excuse for such an egregious violation.
This post is not about the full range of ages of accusers that is now part of the public information surrounding RG. Just the fixation of some people on the then-17 yo that is said to be part of the RG case.
“In Kansas and Massachusetts, the age for marriage with [parental] consent is 14 for males and 12 for females.” There are countries where girls can be married as young as 10 yo. That doesn’t make it ok everywhere, and reasonable people would likely agree.
https://family-law.freeadvice.com/family-law/marriage/parental-consent.htm
The attempt to justify the then-17 yo by comparing laws is just a deliberate red herring to distract from the real issues in this case, IMO.
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Sex isnt against the rules either but there are restrictions on both. Bute may not be administered less than 12 hours before competition and not over a certain dose per weight. Sex may not be with a minor or abusive or harassment. I think the similarity applies. I also suggest you review your drug rules
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No need. I know the drug rules quite well. You can compete on bute in the hunter discipline (and national level jumpers) as listed in the USEF rules. Your statement inferred that Bute is no longer legal and I was just stating that is incorrect. No one has to be grandfathered in the use Bute.
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Oof. That is a horrible story in every direction. Poor girl.
Welcome to the BB, by the way. May I ask how you got here if you’re not a horse person?
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That is how it is today. Emphasis on today. The way they are managing and applying SS rules sets a precedent that USEF can make changes today and apply them to anything from yesterday. With 5 years of samples on file “for testing” I find that even more interesting.
For a moment, please stop the focus on the medication rules and look at rules in general. What I’m saying is that it really doesn’t matter what you know about the rules today. Not the drug rules (that you know wet well - I applaud you as you are very well versed!) or competition rules or any rule. You may be following the rules and even the law today. But if in the future if whatever you are doing today is determined to be wrong a rule could be retroactively applied to you. They have never done this before but it shows they think it’s okay to do so.
This doesn’t mean I’m against victims. It does mean I am aware of what a precedent is and how it can be leveraged multi ways once it exists.
Thats all I’m saying. I think some people get this on here and some don’t. That’s okay.
And for the record, I’m fine with my drug sample being on file. I follow the rules. At least today’s rules…
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I’m going to talk about the elephant in the room.
The biggest problem isn’t that people hero worship trainers. The biggest problem is that too many people think that women, even young girls, are the keepers of mens’ sexuality. That women - girls - are de facto there for the taking and it’s up to them to prove that they weren’t. That if a man even thinks that a girl is offering herself to him - and he gets to judge whether she is or not - it’s OK to have sex with her.
There are plenty of rape cases on record where men got off after claiming that young girls “asked for it” by dressing “slutty” or getting drunk, or coming on to them. so obviously, they couldn’t turn her down and therefore, it was all her fault. “Did you scream?” “Did you fight back?” “Let’s see the bruises.” If there aren’t any bruises, she must have not have resisted hard enough, so she must have been willing.
More directly applicable to this discussion here is the question people keep asking - why didn’t she speak out at the time? with its clear implication that the girl must have been a willing participant. AK got paid, didn’t she? She got all that invaluable training and even went to the Olympics didn’t she? Now is only out to trash some Great Trainer’s reputation. (how ungrateful of her!)
Just check out the “were you a virgin?” line of questioning in the wrestling case. I believe Reynolds said that was one of the first questions the arbiter asked her.
“The woman tempted me and I did eat” is still a perfectly valid defense in many peoples’ minds.
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Did we really stoop so low at try to equate the drug rules to sex with minors? Did I REALLY read that?
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One of my daughter’s rowing coaches was found to be having a sexual relationship with one of the rowers on the junior team (high school). Another mother said to me, “that girl has always liked older men.” Right. Like that 30 year old coach didn’t know it was wrong? Digging back into his past, the rowing club discovered he’d been fired from a previous job for inappropriate text messaging to a 15 year old girl. He was “outed” by the girl’s friend who reported it to the administration. Not only was that never disclosed to the next club who hired him, but the parents of that girl sent her younger sister to row with him.
I really liked this man and was shocked that he had behaved in this way at least twice (that we knew of). Because he was likeable and talented, a lot of people were willing to overlook his behavior and blame the girls.
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The Supreme Court has said that ex post facto criminal laws are illegal where the penalty increases (some ex post facto laws decriminalize behavior or lessen the penalty). Only criminal. Civil laws, administrative rule making, etc. is fair game.
In the sexual misconduct space, some of the laws relating to sex offender registration applied retroactively. Because this doesn’t involve a criminal penalty, the Supreme Court held it constitutional. And interestingly, the Supreme Court also upheld a state law that required some sexual predators to be committed indefinitely to a mental institution, even though that may have effectively lengthened their sentence. The Court found that there was no criminal punishment imposed.
In the administrative space, so long as Congress has expressly authorized ex post facto application, the agencies can act accordingly. This is long standing accepted practice. USOC is not a three letter agency, but this is the type of space Safe Sport is in because there are no criminal penalties. Or even civil penalties as far as I can tell—if you are banned under the code, you don’t have to give back winnings, etc. like you might with a doping violation.
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You and a few others keep throwing up this straw man argument that is entirely irrelevant to SafeSport and sexual misconduct investigations. This has already been said multiple times by multiple people and no one should have to say it again, but apparently we do.
Never in the history of AHSA or USEF has having sex with minor children been legal anywhere. It was never legal in the 60s or 70s or 80s or 90s or today. It has always been against the rules. Against social norms. Against the law. So it matters not one bit if SafeSport “looks back.” Because no matter how far back they look within the lifetime of any living human being, having sex with children has been illegal.
Age of consent in any state is irrelevant. You and others keep saying things like “well, what about a poor guy having sex with a 17 or 16 year old girl in a state where that was the legal age of consent?” Straw man. Did Rob Gage only have sex with girls over the age of 16? No. Did Jimmy Williams only have sex with girls over the age of 16? No. Did Randall Cates only have sex with girls over 16? No. Did Mitch Steege only have sex with girls over the age of 16? No.
Please, find us this straw man who was banned by SafeSport because he had perfectly legal (at the time) sex with a female student. If you can come up with anyone, anywhere, who has been sanctioned by USEF for doing something that was legal or well within the bounds of social norms at the time he did it, please share. If you can, then your argument might have some credence.
There is, as far as I can tell, no retroactive application of “new” rules on sexual misconduct. These rules aren’t new. No legal “precedent” is being set. Our willingness to publicly acknowledge the violation of rules against having sex with minors may be new, but the rules have always existed.
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@NoSuchPerson But was it in the rule book at the time? I kid but that was actually brought up. I mean really people need a rule on sex with minors?
I cannot wrap my head around these arguments being made here. To equate the drug rules with having sex with minor children is just on a whole new level of WTF.
Claiming that one has a lifetime membership and therefore should be grandfathered in and not have to comply with Safe Sport is just wow.
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The chaplain of a local nursing home was arrested for sexual abuse of residents. I am watching the comments closely. So far he has people who find it hard to believe but seem to accept it is possible. No rabid defenders as of yet. There is at least one heartfelt comment that someone made because they are sick that they didn’t believe their dementia impaired mother when she told them years ago.
It was the home my mother was in. I never liked the man for a different reason. But that may cloud my judgement of him.
Also on the thread is a Facebook “friend” who noted that he announced in the last few weeks that he had accepted a new position in a state far away.
Those two posts lead a bit of credence to the charge.
Off topic a bit but interesting nonetheless.
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EXACTLY!!!
How you doin’, Denali??!!
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To be fair those thoughts came out of the weightlifting case where it was brought out by the accused lawyers to the arbitration panel that consent was not spelled out in the wrestling rules. Therefore they had no rules to base the suspension upon.
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹ I agree it has no bearing on cases involving minors but I am not sure everyone is referring to this particular case but SS in general.
