I’m so sorry you went through that. Big hugs.
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I hope that through these tragedies and the pain and suffering so many have endured that we as a horse community grow and start to take stock of what is important and what kind of heart and soul we want to project and what kind of footprint going forward we want to leave. The rumor mills are spinning and it looks like things are shifting to young men and boys who are coming forward - I am curious how this will be received.
Thanks. I have no question had we been in the type of dorms that are common today, I would have had bruises at the very least. The next door neighbors heard me hit the wall and the yelling and ran into the room. In today’s apartment type dorms, no one may have heard the ruckus. The neighbors also reported to the RA who was the one who went to the RD. Nevertheless it was still swept under the rug. And I was told I wasn’t nice enough to her and didn’t do go places with her and didn’t like her girlfriend. I remember just being flabbergasted that the RD was telling me these things and not knowing what to say. I was at a loss for words. I can only imagine what it would have been like if this had been a sexual assault.
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@OwnTooMany Honest follow-up question: why do you believe that SafeSport has weak due process?
Like I stated beforehand, from my experience (both as a sexual assault and domestic violence counselor + through extensive interviews with people who were (or, in some cases, still are) involved in the SafeSport investigative process), I don’t find this to be the case at all - especially when I compare it to internal investigations in other settings in which the accused are around minors.
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, it’s also pretty strong when I compare it to internal investigations in professional settings in which the accused are not around minors (once again, this is based on my personal experience).
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@roseymare I am now of the opinion that people, when they can’t understand just stop trying. They instead turn themselves into a pretzel trying to sanitize things so they don’t have to deal.
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Please read all posts by @FiSk123 for clarity of the process. The poster has an inside understanding of the process and has seen it at work.
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Of course, the clutching of pearls on the retroactive drug testing is somewhat ignorant of history. Yes, USEF has done some retro-testing. Of a rule already in place and clearly defined even if the exact substance was not spelled out in all upper case times roman bold face underlined font. But just to be extra clear they announced pretty much in this order:
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Date #1: We’ve heard rumors, hints and allegations of a NEW DRUG out there. The NEW DRUG is against the rules. We are actively working on a test to detect it. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
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Date #2: We are getting ready to roll out a test to detect the NEW DRUG that we warned you about on Date #1
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Date #3: Oh, by the way… we have a test for the NEW DRUG. We are retroactively testing going back to Date #2. You were warned.
So you can be fine with the drug rules because you’d have to be as dumb as a box of rocks to be nailed by the retro application of the rule. (and yeah, there are that people that stupid or craven #butweknewthat)
Fortunately sexual misconduct with a minor is, as has been endlessly repeated, clearly defined in the criminal code then and now. So short of that straw man example nobody has ever actually proven, nobody currently alive should have been under any confusion regarding this issue.
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I’m sorry you think my post was “kind of silly.” I find that statement condescending.
In my original post I also provided information about the multiple times my mother did things that DFaCS would consider abuse or abandonment as another example of how applying rules ex-post facto can be an issue. I’m sorry you think the drug example is “silly.” Not all medications are bad. I take them at age 46 from an accident long ago. My gelding is 18 and takes Equioxx. It’s helped him tremendously. I used that as an example, but I could have used sticking (lots of the that on the footage in Harry and Snowman), lunging (lots of that from the 80s and yet it was abusive to the horse), yes helmets - what foolish parents let their kids jump without them. I’m sorry the actual example was lost on so many who can’t see the simple point that precedent is important. I guess I just didn’t explain it well enough. Additionally, some people have blinders to the one area of focus that impacts them, whether defending the victim or the accused. But there is also a bigger picture to consider. A lot of people went off on the drug thing arguing but the reality is, it simply sets a precedent that today’s rules can be applied to yesteryear. That’s all.
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What about when Safe Sport is used in a retaliatory manner by someone OF AGE claiming harassment or inappropriate conduct? This is exactly what happened with TS and exactly why I still have problems with it. Of COURSE sec with minors is wrong, of course minors should be 100% protected, but that isn’t the only conduct Safe Sport is trying to regulate.
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Please stop with the what was once okay arguments to sexual contact with minors which has never been legal. Just stop.
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And it worked out just fine for him. Lawyer was pro bono and he is not suspended.
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You still miss the point. Please take off your blinders for just one post. This isn’t about minors or sexual abuse. It’s about precedent. And yes, it’s important.
I’m not responding to you anymore, so please, do keep telling me what to do if it so suits you. You can only see things from your side and your opinion, and you cannot see the big picture nor can you even attempt to understand other’s opinions. Again, I am sorry to hear you suffered so much abuse. I do hope you have taken legal action against your abuser so you can find some peace. Abuse isn’t right. But creating rules that set dangerous precedent is not right, either.
Maybe you need to go love on your horse for a bit and remember all that is good about the sport and the people in it. I am not evil. I’ve been abused, too. But I believe in removing emotion from the decision and focusing on what is fair. I also believe in preponderance of evidence. I don’t believe we have that in common so I doubt we will ever meet over drinks anytime, and I am fine with that. You can have your opinion, and I can have mine. But you have no right to shut another person down on this forum for simply not agreeing with you. That would be bullying (also banned by SafeSport in case you needed a reminder).
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Do many of you even work in the real world? Even in the 1980s, when I worked for a major military contractor, we had sexual harassment training that included, NO CONSENSUAL sexual relationships in the work environment when one partner is in a supervisory role over another. NO SEXUAL relationships with underage employees (e.g. interns). DON’T TOUCH someone if they do not want to be touched, period. DON’T harass or create a hostile environment, not even sexual, but just don’t be an insulting ass. Be professional and respectful.
These concepts are NOT new and it definitely is NOT, “things were different back then.” This whole, “back in the day” crap is a dodge to avoid actual accountability. To those who suggest that society was different, you lose my support in your arguments to justify RG because I know otherwise.
Too bad the horse world has to wake up to what we have to deal with in the real world every day.
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After losing a few customers, being whispered about at every horse show, and suffering multiple nights of lost sleep … sure, that all sounds like a day at the beach!
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I hear what you’re saying and I think you’re echoing what I’ve heard from a number of reasonable trainers who are afraid. They worry they won’t have a pro-bono lawyer defend them and they might not have the financial cushion to weather a temporary suspension like TS.
Unfortunately, that is the price to pay for protecting the vulnerable, minor or otherwise. We are never going to come up with a system that helps stop abuse that will have zero drawbacks. There are no free lunches, you cannot come up with a system that keeps people safe and doesn’t require the industry to adapt.
Of course, there are opportunities to improve safesport. But when you see how widespread abuse has been for so long we owe it to those who have been harmed and who have stepped forward to make change. Those women had nothing to benefit from coming forward. They did it to protect the young riders of the future.
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First world problems.
@RAyers thank you!
@atl_hunter I get what you were trying to say but the USEF setting a precedent has no bearing on Safe Sport
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She was his employee.
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I’m not sure what the relevance of that fact is? Which I knew by the way … how does that make it any better?
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Then the system discovers that, as it did with Tommy Serio.
Did it cause him distress? I’m sure that it did, and I’m very sorry he went through that. But what do you suggest as an alternative? Research shows that false reports by minors happen <5% of the time. I don’t know what the statistic is for adults, but I doubt it’s significant. We need to protect everyone (children, women and men) from sexual crimes. Should we throw out Safe Sport because an innocent person may be reported?
If so, then let’s throw out all USEF rules too, because at any time a retaliatory person could lodge a complaint with the USEF for a variety of made up infractions. And let’s throw out the criminal justice system too, because false reports are unfortunately made sometimes, because some people are jackwads.
As long as we have sick, evil people in the world, we need rules and we need them to be enforceable to keep everyone safe. And likewise, as long as we have sick, evil people in the world, some of them may try to take advantage of the systems by creating false reports. It does happen, and I can’t imagine what that’s like for the innocent person being accused.
But the answer is not to throw out all systems due to the statistically small amount of people who will abuse them. It’s to make sure the system is adequate enough to discern these false reports. Like it did with Tommy Serio.
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I am certain that if SafeSport feels their time was wasted by a fraudulent report that they will take appropriate action.
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