Rodrigo Pessoa's horse tests positive now

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=Fixerupper;3498413]
The FEI labs do not test for drug residues…they use the ELISA method…which essentially tests for antibodies to medications. It is invaluable for drugs like anabolics, resperpine, and depo cortisone which can be given literally months before competition and still have ‘performance enhancing’ effects. What I do not understand is why anyone cares whether a horse got NSAIDs, let’s say bute, more than 10 days before competition. In the FEI veterinary rules it actually states that the withdrawal time for topical medication is very unpredictable (that would include Surpass, Felbinac and in all likelihood capsaicin as well).
There is a pretty short list of medications which the FEI considers to be ‘legitimate’ with some sparse information on ‘withdraw’ times. One can argue that in the case of these Olympics, because of the extensive quarantines there should have been sufficient time to withdraw any medication…but without any real study (particularly with the caveat that topicals are unpredictable) does anybody really have any idea what a reasonable withdraw time actually is? If the medication is not actively in the horse’s system at the time of testing…only that the meds were given at some unknown time in the past…is it actually legitimate to call it DOPING?
I understand (and agree) that the FEI should be all about the wellfare of the horse, and that they need to be and appear to be proactive. However it seems this is a case of technology warping the concept.[/QUOTE]

You are right:) For some to say NSAIDS have a profound effect on lameness is just crazy…They certainly help but profound…NO

[rabicon]

Well I can put surpass on my horse that has knee issues with Dengerative Arthritis (sp?) and has had sx and vet stem inj. and steriod inj. and one joint on his knee has fused and waiting for the other to fuse. When I put the surpass on his knee he is a different horse (he still limps because the main joint in his knee is fused so it can’t really bend), he runs and bucks and plays etc… So I’d have to say it has a profound effect on the horse.

[Jumphigh83]

Flame suit on…this is becoming a ridiculous witch hunt. The sensitivity of the testing available makes “no foreign substance” rule nearly impossible to comply with…Equi block (and other hot pepper type rubs) might be used in SIGNIFICANT doses to hyper sensitize legs but trace amounts are of negligible use in “doping”. I am fairly certain world class riders trainers vets etc would not risk their repute by intentional doping. AND access to the animals is waaaaaay to easy even by people with FEI passes to the barn…rub some “foreign substance” on the stall bars/walls/drop into the feed tubs…it is all to easy to stick it to someone you want to see flounder. This whole process needs to be revamped.

[showjump]

I totally agree with you Jumphigh83!

[poltroon]

Or heck, just leave some chips and salsa on a tack trunk.

[hsheffield]

fyi

aspirin is a kind of NSAID, btw.

as a matter of fact, some tests in humans have show that the ‘name’ NSAIDs such as alleve or ibuprofen have no more pain relieving effect than aspirin (when dosed accordingly.)

we now return to our regularly scheduled programming…

[WhatzUp]

…

@YankeeLawyer;3497441

I am not speaking to this case specifically, but just fyi sample and lab contamination DOES occur, even in respected laboratories. Modern tests are very, very sensitive.

Hello,

The sample Chain of Custody is extremely explicit and detailed
but this is true, in extremely rare cases mistakes can and do
occur in laboratories.

After all, we Chemists are human !

This is built into analytical protocol, or SOP’s (Standard Operating
Procedures) hence a second sampling et.al. to catch any anomalies.

The instrumentation utilized to analyze these samples have been
increasing in sensitivity for some time now but the capsaicinoids
(family to which capaicin belongs) is not a sensitive component at
all in my opinion for chromatographs to detect.

It would have been detected at the low parts per thousand level in
the early 1970’s. Yes, it is detected at the parts per billion now, but
based on the concentration allegedly “allowed” that level of sensitivity
is not relevant.

What continues to confuse me with respect to “allowed” and “banned”
substances is the lack of consistency in units utilized to detail the
concentrations of substances …! mg/mmol ? mg/mL ?? ug/mmol ???

Yours in sport,

Lynn

[WhatzUp]

YUM !

@poltroon;3503046

Or heck, just leave some chips and salsa on a tack trunk.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

< spits tea on keyboard >

Please tell me whose - I am hungry !!!

Yours in sport,

Lynn

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=WhatzUp;3503263]
Hello,

The sample Chain of Custody is extremely explicit and detailed
but this is true, in extremely rare cases mistakes can and do
occur in laboratories.

After all, we Chemists are human !

This is built into analytical protocol, or SOP’s (Standard Operating
Procedures) hence a second sampling et.al. to catch any anomalies.

The instrumentation utilized to analyze these samples have been
increasing in sensitivity for some time now but the capsaicinoids
(family to which capaicin belongs) is not a sensitive component at
all in my opinion for chromatographs to detect.

It would have been detected at the low parts per thousand level in
the early 1970’s. Yes, it is detected at the parts per billion now, but
based on the concentration allegedly “allowed” that level of sensitivity
is not relevant.

What continues to confuse me with respect to “allowed” and “banned”
substances is the lack of consistency in units utilized to detail the
concentrations of substances …! mg/mmol ? mg/mL ?? ug/mmol ???

Yours in sport,

Lynn[/QUOTE]

My understanding is that there is no level of the substance that is permissible. As for sample and lab contamination – regarding the former, that can occur in or outside the lab. As for the latter, I am familiar with cases in which that has occurred. I would not consider it to be so extraordinarily rare as to rule it out completely as a possibility.

[poltroon]

Capsaicin is easy to transfer to all kinds of um, interesting, places, and does not readily wash off, as anyone who has been sloppy with handling very hot chile peppers can attest.

[Jeito]

[QUOTE=poltroon;3505515]
Capsaicin is easy to transfer to all kinds of um, interesting, places, and does not readily wash off, as anyone who has been sloppy with handling very hot chile peppers can attest.[/QUOTE]

LOL. But I don’t think that’s the issue now. Three riders have said they used Equi-Block and the jar of Equi-Block clearly states - in big letters - that it contains capsaicin. It also states - in big letter - “will not test.” If what YankeeLawyer says is true - that there is no level of the subtance that is permissible - these riders violated the rules and it doesn’t matter that the manufacturer said it “wouldn’t test.”

I wish the FEI would just quietly let this go away. I do think they are being “pig-headed.” Just read the interim decisions Theo posted and especially paragraphs 10 through 14, which talk about the FEI protesting the initial lifting of the suspension on the ground that letting these riders compete would cause “immeasurable harm” to the sport :uhoh:

[Auventera_Two]

@ellemayo;3497024

Wow I had no idea that things have gotten so strict! I guess avoiding all of the banned substances has become a full time job…

My endurance horse is now on Gastrogard to treat her for severe ulceration, and I was told by the vet that it is a banned substance by the AERC. That’s ridiculous. Trailering, camping overnight, conditioning, competing, electrolytes, grain, everything about the sport causes increased stomach acid and apparently about 75% of endurance horses have ulcers. But the medication that effectively treats and cures ulcers to keep the horses healthy and comfortable and competing is BANNED. That’s just absurd.

[egontoast]

My endurance horse is now on Gastrogard to treat her for severe ulceration, and I was told by the vet that it is a banned substance by the AERC. That’s ridiculous. Trailering, camping overnight, conditioning, competing, electrolytes, grain, everything about the sport causes increased stomach acid and apparently about 75% of endurance horses have ulcers. But the medication that effectively treats and cures ulcers to keep the horses healthy and comfortable and competing is BANNED. That’s just absurd.

While your horse is in the middle of a gastrogard treatment for 'severe ulceration" , why would you even want to compete and subject her to all those things which you say increases stomach acid.