Rude Behavior: Snatching Leaves and Grass on the Trail

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=Jess!;3204985]
There is a big difference in training your horse to reach out and eat while riding, and a horse that literally will YANK you from the saddle because they want to eat and they want to eat NOW.

The latter is just bad behavior, or bad training. Sometimes the horse is just too strong for the rider, and can pull their head down no matter what. That is where check reins, or anti grazing devices, can come into play.

My horses are endurance horses, but you can bet they are not like that. They know when they can reach while trotting or cantering along, and if they cannot reach the grass - they don’t try.

[b]Shadow - you don’t know half of what you think you know, and the half you do know? Well, personally I take anything you say with a grain of salt. A rather large one. You are doing nothing but trying to stir up trouble around here.

You are not god’s gift to horses and horseback riders. Stop acting like it, please.[/b][/QUOTE]

Well said.

[blackstallion]

[QUOTE=Sithly;3204940]
…We use the same system (different cue) for hand-grazing, too. I can lead him around the lawn all day, stop to talk to friends if I want, and he will stand still and mind his manners until I give him the cue to graze. Even then he’s not allowed to pull on the rope.[/QUOTE]

My 4 year old gelding has learned this well on the ground (lots of hand grazing after the draught hit), and is sensitive to bumping the rope halter when I don’t want him to graze, but it has not transferred to saddle/bridle. He has always been very heavy in the bridle and if the check rein can keep him from yanking on my back, for now, that is worth it to me.

[Auventera_Two]

Jess, that’s how my horse is too…she knows when she can reach grass or leaves and when she can’t. She doesn’t snatch me out of the saddle to grab. She just grabs as she trots or walks along, if I give her the rein to do so. If I give her the reins (I ride with long ones), then she isn’t pulling me onto her neck and I don’t lose my balance and neither does she. This is something she learned while ponying from my other horse. She watched the other mare and grabbed a mouthful when the other mare did. I gave her rope and let her. When I picked up the rope again, she’d have to get back in line at my knee and go on.

Horses are smart and you can train them to eat on cue just like you can train them to do anything else.

[Rt66Kix]

I allow my horses to graze whist riding, but ONLY when I say they can. My aid is to put the reins forward, and push on their manes just ahead of the saddle, and say, “OK!” They quickly learned this, and are very well-behaved.

Since I have 3 to keep exercised, and my husband rarely rides, I end up ponying a lot. Even the horse being ponied has learned to wait until I say “OK” to start eating.

I started foxhunting last fall, and my field hunter Buddy is allowed to graze at checks. This is very important to me, since we can be out for hours. Buddy also has arthritis in his neck, and letting him “down” is beneficial. The other hunters are amazed at how well-behaved he is, and said their horses would try to snatch grass at a gallop. I think this is more a sign that they aren’t able to read their horse’s body language, because you can tell when they are going to dive.

Your body position can determine if you are going to get yanked forward. If you ride with a hollow in your lower back, you are going to be pulled forward if they dive. I tuck my belly button into my spine if I feel their head going forward, and that sets my body into a strong position. It’s rare that they get me out of the saddle now, and even when I rode my full Belgian draft, he couldn’t dislodge me. And I ride all my horses bitless.

Last year I went on a riding vacation, and rode a horse that was allowed to stop and snatch at will. It was extremely frustrating, and the first day my lower back was SO sore from countering him. The second day he figured it out, and we rarely had any issues. However, if I took my attention off of him for a split second, he dove and got away with it.

It’s taught me to really be aware of where my horse’s attention is! Good luck.

[matryoshka]

I don’t see many “sweet poopsie” types posting to this section of the forum. Most of us here are out there riding our horses, not just thinking about riding. We’re generally good natured people who prefer to discuss trail riding and training techniques rather than engage in idle arguments.

If you like idle arguments, there’s a new Parelli thread, and don’t miss Eruss’s posts on the hoof threads. :no:

OP, let us know how it goes with your horse. Most of us have had to deal with this at one time or another, so you’re going to get lots of advice to choose from. That way you can find what works for your way of riding and your horse.

Blackstallion, if your horse has learned it on the ground than there is hope for him on the trail. I’m not fond of the “kicking them into the next gear” method, but that is because I’ve been riding OTTB’s lately. You might use a combination of things until your horse respects you more in the saddle. It does seem to be hard for hungry horses to pass up all of that lush foliage, especially if their pasture isn’t plush.

My poor boy lives in an overgrazed field because he has to live with ponies who cannot be allowed access to lush pasture. On the one hand, he loves to chase them around. On the other, he doesn’t get free-choice anything and has to content himself with eating more when I have them all separated. You can bet he wants to graze when on the trail. Luckily, he’s sensitive enough that a firm hand that doesn’t allow him to put his nose to the ground is sufficient deterrent. A couple of “no’s” and he stops asking. The more persistant and rude the horse, the stronger the deterrent, and perhaps punishment, needs to be.

[gothedistance]

Nor am I in favor of the “kicking then into next gear” or the “whack on the face” scenarios. Both can result in a less than favorable response – and in the case of the OP who already stated that her horse gets dis-focused, even in dangerous situations, because of wanting food, the LAST thing I would council is for her to kick or hit her horse. She would end up going over the cliff… or much worse.

Getting back on topic with the OP’s situation – this is a pleasure riding horse, not an endurance horse, so I’m not going to touch on the needs of an endurance horse to refuel. That is not the situation here. The OP already advised us that her horse was (1) intelligent (2) strong (a draft/qh mix – gad! All those muscles and thick neck!!), and (3) disconnected to the actuality of putting itself and herself in danger when questing for food.

I can easily imagine the poor OP’s struggles to keep the horse’s head up, and the toll is it taking on her back, her position, and her temper as she gets yanked repeatedly by this very strong horse. And this is why the suggestion to using a well recognized and very successful tack aid to training the horse not to snatch.

The overchecks and sidechecks are self-correcting, and ONLY come into play when the horse reaches down to snatch grass. The rider doesn’t have to do anything – the horse will check itself. Nor can the horse evade this type of correction like it can a kick or a swipe of the whip or a yank of the reins. The rider can continue to concentrate on their riding, and not get jerked around by the horse – they merely have to let the tack do the work of discouraging this vice. The horse will quickly realize what it is allowed to do, or not do, and very quickly will stop trying to dive for grass.

If it were me, and I could use other hacking paths for a while, I would stay clear of anyplace that would put food close to the horse’s mouth without it having to bend it’s head. If that’s impossible, and the OP has to hack on wooded trails and through high grass, I would suggest she invest in an eventing figure 8 noseband to keep the horse’s mouth closed tight. You want to discourage, as much as possible, any opportunity for the horse to actually get grass or leaves in it’s mouth.

Please — don’t kick or hit or otherwise take swings at your horse. It may work for some people, but in your case I think it can lead to some evasions that will put you in trouble. Your horse is big and stubborn with a fat pony attitude which really works best under corrections using the passive-agressive approach (the sidecheck and the figure 8 noseband) that your horse can’t connect directly back to you as being the source of the punishment. Make him correct himself, and I think you’ll come about to a much better relationship together in a pretty quick timeframe.

[matryoshka]

Great post GTD! It bears rereading, but rather than quoting it, I’ll just say, read the above post (by gothedistance) again!

[Sithly]

The problem with the check rein is that a smart horse will very quickly figure out when it’s off. If you plan on riding with it indefinitely, it’s not a problem at all. Otherwise, looping the reins over the horn accomplishes the same thing and is not as obvious to the horse. [ETA] Also, some horses will lay on the check rein.

The problem with the whack-and-scoot method is that you have to be prepared to ride through the scoot. If you are not certain you can ride through whatever your horse offers, you shouldn’t do it. And I hope no one would be foolish enough to scoot their horse off a cliff! :lol: But maybe there needs to be a disclaimer for that, too. “If the cliff is on your left, don’t whack your horse on the right.” :lol:

[matryoshka]

I cut the horn off my saddle. Couldn’t stand the thing!!

[Sithly]

[QUOTE=matryoshka;3206379]
I cut the horn off my saddle. Couldn’t stand the thing!![/QUOTE]

Hehe. I started out riding english as a kid, but now I love my western saddle for trails. Though I’m always a little bit scared that I’ll get a horn to the gut some day. :eek: It happened to my friend – her horse jumped over a log and the horn nailed her right in the solar plexus. She could do nothing but gasp like a fish for several minutes.

shudder Ouch.

[gothedistance]

@Sithly;3206351

The problem with the check rein is that a smart horse will very quickly figure out when it’s off. If you plan on riding with it indefinitely, it’s not a problem at all. Otherwise, looping the reins over the horn accomplishes the same thing and is not as obvious to the horse. [ETA] Also, some horses will lay on the check rein.

Just like electric fence, a smart stubborn horse will always “test” the equipment; but over time it will be tested less and less. I would think that a couple of hours spent in a sidecheck will result in a horse that becomes far more obedient towards the rider and stops diving at food at every opportunity. Besides, who cares if the OP finds that she likes a sidecheck and wants to continue to ride in one? It’s for her comfort. Frankly, if it does what it is solely designed to do --to keep the horse’s head off the ground – then more power to her.

Western saddles are the only ones with horns. If she doesn’t ride western… then what??? Plus, looping the reins over the horn is a questionable practice at anytime – it reduces the rider’s ability to react in directing the horse, and can be dangerous if she needs to move/direct the horse quickly.

I have never ever found a horse that bores down on the side check for more than a second or so before coming back up. But if the OP finds her horse doing this – and really pressing down hard without releasing – there are generally one of two issues going on: (1) the side rein is too tight (which is easily remedied), or (2) the horse is completely evading/ignoring the rider’s hands and trying to “bully” the side rein into releasing. For the latter – you take the horse back into the ring with a dressage whip in hand, and legs on, and teach the horse to carry itself appropriately at all gaits, and not try to “bully” the rider by burdening the bit. It might take a few lessons in the ring, but the horse will get the picture pretty quickly of what isn’t going to be tolerated.

[Sithly]

[QUOTE=gothedistance;3206408]
I have rarely ever found a horse that “lays” on the side check, or the check rein. But if that happens, there are generally one of two issues going on: (1) the side rein is too tight (which is easily remedied), or (2) the horse is completely evading/ignoring the rider’s hands and trying to “bully” the rider (or in this case the side rein) into releasing. For the latter – you take the horse back into the ring with a dressage whip in hand, and legs on, and teach the horse to carry itself appropriately at all gaits, and not try to “bully” the rider by burdening the bit. It might take a few lessons in the ring, but the horse will get the picture pretty quickly of what isn’t going to be tolerated. ;)[/QUOTE]

Totally agree with this! Bullying and leaning are the problems she was describing in the first place (compounded by the grass issue). This advice is not much different from the other advice she’s gotten for fixing the problem on the trail.

[gothedistance]

The other advice for fixing the problem was to kick and hit and spur the horse while out on the trail and also to do so while the horse was ignoring her attempts to correct him with the reins. Sadly, a situation that leads to more problems that just escalate the issue.

The sidecheck will only do self-correction on the diving-the-head-to-the-grass issue – it remains passive to all other events and leaves the rider to use the reins properly – which is for guidance, not punishment. If the horse is going to try and bully the side rein, and not give in, then that’s when the rider needs to take her control of the problem one step further, and bring the horse into a ring in a controlled environment, and work on obedience – NOT out on the trail where things can go wrong too fast too often.

However, I suspect this horse is probably just going to test the equipment a few times, then give in (and give up). After all, she said he’s intelligent. Which I equate to “not stupid”.

[katarine]

The other advice for fixing the problem was to kick and hit and spur the horse while out on the trail and also to do so while the horse was ignoring her attempts to correct him with the reins. Sadly, a situation that leads to more problems that just escalate the issue.

from my perspective, you read it all wrong.

I specifically said: get off his face and out of his mouth and get on his ass, literally, about this disrespectful behavior. You’re assuming the horse is diving for grass only…I’m assuming he’s a PITA on narrow trails with tempting leaves etc at mouth-height as he’s walking along. No check rein is going to stop the quick dive and bite to the side. He’s dragging peeps around on the ground, too- Knock it Off is my solution and for me, it works. I’m also assuming she’s horseman enough to ride through his big goofy woosh- he’s not an OTTB- he’s a big galloot taking advantage with his strength. that brutish behavior has a price- it’s working hard, wooshing forward, trotting his fanny OUT and Now, now whoa and walk on.

I have a big goofy cold-blooded acting SSH filly that’s also TOO food motivated. But she’s learning to respect my quick harsh HEY that’s coupled with a big fat BOOT in the sides to Knock it Off. She wooshes forward a sec, looks pissy, slows down, and goes on…she’s learning. she’ll get to where it’s just the bark or even a little growl, or a bump of my calves to remind her UH UH Knock It Off.

Different roads to Rome but I don’t see where this ‘Sadly, escalates’ anything except the horsie learning to keep his trap shut.

[Sithly]

[QUOTE=gothedistance;3206478]
The other advice for fixing the problem was to kick and hit and spur the horse while out on the trail and also to do so while the horse was ignoring her attempts to correct him with the reins. Sadly, a situation that leads to more problems that just escalate the issue.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I just can’t get onboard with this. A few swift, well-timed corrections are preferable to spending an entire season in check reins or a grazing muzzle, hoping the problem will solve itself.

Granted, the check rein will probably give her enough help to solve the problem eventually, as long as she’s committed to work on the horsemanship issues that lead to this point. The check rein is not a solution on its own – it’s a band aid. And believe me, I’m not speaking idly. I used to work for a place that did trail rides, and I’ve seen every form of check rein evasion there is. :lol:

Anyway, maybe the best solution for the OP is to combine several approaches. She could use the check rein temporarily, while working on sharpening up her horse’s responses and general obedience on the trail (which will address the underlying issues). Not discounting ring work, but if you want your horse to pay attention on the trail, you have to practice on the trail.

[ETA – Posted at the same time as Katarine, and I think she said it well.]

[gothedistance]

No, I haven’t read it wrong. The OP can’t “get on his ass” since he already puts her in bad situations with a thoughtless “I could care less about you OR me” attitude. He literally runs into trees, so can you imagine what a boot in the sides is going to propel him into doing?

The OP is a pretty intelligent person, I’m sure, and already recognizes that her spooky Thoroughbred is a far safer horse to ride – because he knows how to take care of both himself and her. The other one doesn’t… and probably doesn’t care, either. She knows him better than we do, so if she wants to ride him in a safe manner she needs all the aids at her disposal that will prevent him from doing what he wants to do … especially when he does so with such a complete disregard for her safety. The side rein will give the horse those “well timed corrections” exactly and only when they are needed, without the rider compromising her reinsmanship or her seat. The figure 8 will keep those jaws closed, so he’ll find he can’t stuff his face with eye-level goodies.

Sithly, your suggestion of a combined approach is what I personally would do. A side check, a figure 8 noseband, and some good flatwork sessions in the ring to teach him that under saddle work is just that – work – not a goof-off session complete with a trail-side buffet.

[katarine]

Welp, if you fail to plan you plan to fail…so, the intelligent OP should take him to tempting places that are also safe training places. If she’s as smart as you think she is, she’ll know when to survive vs train, right? You seem to assume she’s dumb enough to boot him in a dumb place. I assume she’s smarter than that. Don’t you?

lots of assuming all 'round :lol: good luck OP

[gothedistance]

@katarine;3206693

If she’s as smart as you think she is, she’ll know when to survive vs train, right?

If the OP is as smart as I think she is, she’ll not put herself in the position where it is “survival vs training”.

You seem to assume she’s dumb enough to boot him in a dumb place.
No, that was your advice for correcting the problem – ie: “getting on his ass” – even after we were told that he chronically and thoughtlessly gets her in bad situations going after grass since he has no regard for either his safety or her own. I took that seriously enough to figure that rider induced corrections of the “kick and hit” nature where going to cause more problems then they solved. He’s strong, willfull, stubborn, smart, and NOT a hotblood.

[katarine]

if she’s going to TRAIN him with my method then yes she better be smart about where she does the training.

If she’s going to use your method, she can’t ride on narrow, tempting, leafy trails b/c the checkrein won’t bonk him unless it’s so snug he dare not trip. She also can’t ride in tall grass. I was riding through stirrup deep grass this weekend. She can’t go there and rely on the grazing rein/check rein. She’ll have to go somewhere else.

Uh oh, then… either way…she better PLAN where she’s going to be training on him or it won’t work. I think we can agree on that. Or not.

[gothedistance]

If she’s going to use your method, she can’t ride on narrow, tempting, leafy trails b/c the checkrein won’t bonk him unless it’s so snug he dare not trip. She also can’t ride in tall grass. I was riding through stirrup deep grass this weekend. She can’t go there and rely on the grazing rein/check rein. She’ll have to go somewhere else.
I guess you didn’t read the part about her also using an eventing figure 8 noseband? That keeps the horse’s mouth closed – and while generally used by the eventing crowd to keep their horses from evading the bit (which is done by opening the mouth), it also aids a rider in preventing a mouthy horse from grabbing food along the trail. If the horse can’t open it’s mouth, it can’t grab food.

The OP will be able to go where ever she wants. Using the right tack to prevent this horse from indulging in his annoying vice, she can finally have that pleasurable hack she has been so longing to experience.