S/O: Foundered horses and grass

[lenapesadie]

Oh my goodness how scary! I’m sorry about your pony. Does he have any known metabolic disorders or symptoms other than the founder?

I’m getting frustrated trying to research management strategies bc most of it seems to be geared towards horses with known metabolic disorders and/or obesity.

I’m definitely goin to wait at least a little while longer before trying grazing and then I’ll probably do like 5 mins hand grazing to start to see if any changes.

My guy is walking pretty good in his boots. Heel first landing. He’s still looks off if he turns sharply and has to pivot on a front foot.

[cayuse]

My pony is a long story. Years of being footy sometimes despite testing neg for cushings and IR. His X-rays always looked great except for the thin soles. Then he finally did test positive for both and was treated accordingly. When he foundered, his IR was out of control again and that’s probably why the founder, BUT in hindsight, pony was discovered to have a chronic liver disorder and I wonder if this somehow played in to the initial episode.
He is under control now so the grazing “incident” happened with him being within normal limits. I’ve never been able to really get him out of the boots since the founder. He’s good in snow and soft surfaces, but as soon as the ground hardens or is pebbly the boots go on. He had rotation, sinking, and those blasted “thin soles”. I have a good farrier who keeps his toes trimmed back and he’s on a 4-5 week cycle now. Pony is 25 and a well loved pet. Still does agility classes and is learning In-hand dressage to get his walking in (vet approved )

ETA: I would love to be able to shoe him and I think it would resolve the residual footiness, but we can’t get shoes on him, he is a holy terror and my farrier refuses. Even with sedation, farrier won’t get under him to set shoes on and I don’t blame him. It’s not this particular farrier, pony came to me with this quirk.

[lenapesadie]

What a journey horses take us on. Thank you so much for sharing your story.

It’s weirdly encouraging to hear that it took a while for the IR/PPID tests to come back positive. I’ll keep testing my guy.

Dang those thin soles! My guy is good to shoe up front. He’s always been unhappy about his hinds, even to trim. Both farriers I’ve used on him thought it was behavior and not pain. Pretty sure they’re wrong.

That’s a very interesting proposition to connect the liver issue with the founder. Mine has chronic scratches on his hind legs. We may do some sort of circulation test and if it showed abnormalities then there might be a link between the scratches and the laminitis/founder.

Old horses and ponies are the best Best of luck with your boy!

[cayuse]

Aww, thank you for the wishes of luck, same with your guy. I love the old timers.
If I ever am lucky enough to purchase another horse, thin soles would be a deal breaker for me!

[candyappy]

@lenapesadie

I’ve seriously considered removing all the grass and just having the horses on dry lots 24/7 lol

It would be my preference if I could do it. I think it makes horse management easier.

[grayarabians]

My horse tested negative on two baseline ACTH tests…Cornell. 2019 and 2021.
I knew something was wrong.
Abscesses - and just too many weird things.
I finally twigged to ask for the TRH Stim test and bingo - unfortunately positive.
But at least I now have answers.
Horse was started on compounded Pergolide immediately.
Subsequent Stim test showed he needed a higher dose. Now 2 mg/day.
Wedgewood capsules - overnight mail.
We are entering the seasonal rise - so expect his ACTH to go even higher.
(August, September, October).
A small percentage of horses have Cushings but test normal on baseline bloodwork.
I’m scared you-know-what-less about the seasonal rise - with my horse only showing positive on Stim test - and seasonal rise makes things more difficult to know his levels - and how much Pergolide he should be on - to avoid laminitis.
I’m a member of the ECIR group - but have had no time to do a case history yet.
Point: horses can be PPID but test normal.

[lenapesadie]

Thank you for sharing. My horse has a history of abscesses too! And the chronic scratches. Those were my primary drivers for having him tested this spring. I don’t recall what test it was, but I know it was done at Cornell! I will ask about the TRH Stim test. Maybe it can be done with the fasting IR test?

The vet thinks his abscesses are related to his thin soles, which is plausible. But I am concerned we might be missing the PPID and the chance to treat with meds. My horse doesn’t have the classic symptom of not shedding his coat, but I know not all PPID horses present with that. Other than the abscesses, what other symptoms did you see that indicated your horse might have PPID?

What general area of the country are you in? I’m in the deep/gulf south and my summer pastures typically grow strong through September. I’m now also paranoid about my other horse developing issues too!

[joiedevie99]

I wouldn’t do it yet. Get him comfortable off all drugs, get his feet stable, figure out a manageable diet to help his weight while controlling his NSC. Then start with 30 minutes to an hour a day, in a muzzle.

[Bluey]

My 16 year old at the time of diagnosis with Cushings gelding did well on Prascend for 2 years and out on grass.
He was still fat and I was worried, but vet said he would be fine.
Then he foundered practically overnight, from bucking and playing one day to standing there sad and in pain next morning, with 13% rotation.
After a few weeks, he was fine, x-rays were good, but I was not about to turn him out ever again, once was enough.
At that time we added Thyroid-L and he was stable, at good weight for him and healthy and sound for 7 more years, living in his large and a bit grassy and weedy special pen in the corner of their summer pasture.

He then crashed metabolically, he was sound still, but no energy and just standing there dejected, vet sent blood to Cornell, they said “his figures were so bad their equipment didn’t even measure that high”.
Vet retested and we decided to let him go then, as he was going to anyway in a few more days, his system finally shutting down.
It was a very hard time for all of us, not only because he was an exceptional horse all around everyone loved, horses and humans and such a loss in our lives, but you always second guess yourself what else we could have done …

If you have a horse with metabolic issues, be aware that you can do much to help them with their quality of life, but there will be sooner or later a very sad time to come.

I still say, better not to take chances.
Horses adapt fine with our help to what they have to do to stay healthy, mentally and physically, as long as we can go there.
Maybe some can go to restricted grass, but it is always chancy.

Vets are learning more every day, stay on top of it all, that’s all that can be said.

[lenapesadie]

He’s definitely not getting any grass yet! Less the odd nibble he can find in the dry lot

Vet doesn’t seem to think he’s metabolic that this is more a “mechanical” founder. I’m not convinced and I’ll be doing more bloodwork.

He’s an older horse so I know his days are numbered. I won’t hold him here if he’s suffering.

I do have to figure out someway to feed him that’s low sugar (in case he is metabolic) and high calorie bc he’s getting skinnier by the day. Lots of legume hay is what I guess I’ll work towards. Though I’m not sure that’s any lower NSC than the TC Senior G he was eating before.

[Bluey]

@lenapesadie

He’s definitely not getting any grass yet! Less the odd nibble he can find in the dry lot

Vet doesn’t seem to think he’s metabolic that this is more a “mechanical” founder. I’m not convinced and I’ll be doing more bloodwork.

He’s an older horse so I know his days are numbered. I won’t hold him here if he’s suffering.

I do have to figure out someway to feed him that’s low sugar (in case he is metabolic) and high calorie bc he’s getting skinnier by the day. Lots of legume hay is what I guess I’ll work towards. Though I’m not sure that’s any lower NSC than the TC Senior G he was eating before.

We did hand graze for five minutes, or riding let him graze for a couple minutes, but no pasture grazing for any time.
Our horse had barn yard privileges, where there was not really any grass but a bit in the barditch.