Sabino to Sabino??...a problem?

Ok JB I got a very interesting situation for you. Here’s the scenario, Dutch mare Melesta is a sabino possibly splash had 3 foals in 3 years took easily first cycle. First stallion was fresh, 2nd was frozen and third fresh. Fresh stallions Balta C’zar and Rousseau and frozen was Negro, all foals had a good bit of white but not a huge amount. 4th year we decide to breed her to Ijsselmeer Ikepono. Semen fresh and excellent quality. We bred her and she took right away but gone by day 28 check all 3 times and we used Regumate the last 2 attempts. We figured that maybe she just needed a year off so the following year we had Idocus semen to use on her and she took right away as usual and kept it no issues normal pregnancy. The following year (last year) we again attempted to breed her to Ijsselmeer and again she lost the by day 28 after catching infoal right away and again tried 3 cycles and used Regumate. Also mare was cultured before breeding. Now this year we bred her fresh one dose of Laroche semen and she took (haven’t got to day 28 yet).

So here’s my theory, there is some kind of incompatability going on and I think it is linked to the splash gene. We did have an Ijsselmeer filly last year out of my Ferro mare Saretta and it was very loud and had a blue eye. I think that there may be a Homozygous Splash that dies in-utero by day 28…my vet agrees that some kind of strange thing going on, what is your thoughts? Is that possible do you think? I will post some pics. First one is Melesta then Ijsselmeer then Saretta and her Ijsselmeer filly.

Melesta 009.jpg

Ijselmeer Icopono.jpg

Parisandmomweb.JPG

There are all sorts of lost pregnancies that have nothing to do with horses of color :slight_smile:

Homozygous Splash exists, as attested to by offspring of certain stallions (since they have enough kids). Splash is also one that, like Sabino, is cumulative - when homozygous, there is more of it. So, offspring of 2 “unproven” parents have proven the zygosity of each

FWIW, my mare Panache, who I posted early in the thread as being mated this year to Roi du Soleil (and discussion around his being sabino and/or splash), just had her first foal (via ET). In the conversation, we had discussed the progressive decline in white from the (sabino and/or splash) grand parents to my mare (who has 2 small socks, ermine, and a tiny star).

Well her colt, by Royal Prince (who has little white), came out with much more white than either parent. 3 socks (2 verging on being stockings) and a fair amount of face white (big star/strip/snip)

https://www.facebook.com/album.php?fbid=1833630614745&id=1659815966&aid=101908&l=99a277c0aa

[QUOTE=ljshorses;5553063]

So here’s my theory, there is some kind of incompatability going on and I think it is linked to the splash gene. We did have an Ijsselmeer filly last year out of my Ferro mare Saretta and it was very loud and had a blue eye. I think that there may be a Homozygous Splash that dies in-utero by day 28…my vet agrees that some kind of strange thing going on, what is your thoughts? Is that possible do you think? I will post some pics. First one is Melesta then Ijsselmeer then Saretta and her Ijsselmeer filly.[/QUOTE]

I once heard a rumor about the possibility that some mares’ reproductive systems simply aren’t compatable with the semen from certain stallions. Something about the balance of chemicals in the particular mare’s uterus vs the balance of chemicals in the particular stallion’s semen. I have no idea if there is any truth to this but stranger things have happened I suppose! Might be something to run past Equine Reproduction.

[QUOTE=TaliaCristianna;5554714]
I once heard a rumor about the possibility that some mares’ reproductive systems simply aren’t compatable with the semen from certain stallions. Something about the balance of chemicals in the particular mare’s uterus vs the balance of chemicals in the particular stallion’s semen. I have no idea if there is any truth to this but stranger things have happened I suppose! Might be something to run past Equine Reproduction.[/QUOTE]

Happens in women and I know that comparing species isn’t always applicable but I would think it could happen in horses as well.

Absolutely happens in horses :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=JB;5551760]
Tobiano does not put white on the head at all. So, any white on the head is from some Overo pattern - Sabino and Splash the most likely.[/QUOTE]

How about this?

Heehee that’s awsome! I fully believe that to be a pretty maximally expressed Tobiano-only.

Unless…is that a teeny star on his head? If so, then it’s Tobi + something.

[QUOTE=JB;5546922]
There are now 12 known testable genes for it, though nobody offers any public testing - too $$.[/QUOTE]

JB pretty much has the rest covered, but I wanted to correct her on this point. Animal Genetics UK offers tests for DW 5 and 10. Its not on their site, but when you download the submission form it is on there.

DW 5 is the Puchilingui lined Thoroughbreds, and DW 10 is GQ Santanas line in QHs.

You know what RMT, you DID tell me about 5/10 a few weeks ago and I totally forgot! But what’s the point LOL Not testing positive for either doesn’t mean not-DW.

But it brings an interesting thought - has 5 shown up in any other line? I wonder if it could be used to prove lineage, ie “horses tests positive for 5, therefore is a Puch-line horse”?

[QUOTE=JB;5556907]
But it brings an interesting thought - has 5 shown up in any other line? I wonder if it could be used to prove lineage, ie “horses tests positive for 5, therefore is a Puch-line horse”?[/QUOTE]

As far as I know no other horses besides the Puchi lined horses are DW 5. Thats because the mutation started with Puchi. I dont think it could be used for 100% certainty of Puchi lined horses because it is possible that another line had the same mutation at some point. Though, it could be a fairly reliable indicator.

[QUOTE=JB;5556102]
Heehee that’s awsome! I fully believe that to be a pretty maximally expressed Tobiano-only.

Unless…is that a teeny star on his head? If so, then it’s Tobi + something.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure… I haven’t seen her in a while, so I really don’t remember if she has a star.

This thread is kind of sad. My baby daddy’s offspring are pretty minimally marked (some face white, one or two have low socks) and my mare is a chestnut with a star. Doesn’t seem likely I’ll get a fun-marked baby. Not that it matters, since it’ll end up gray anyway…

Just got home from a show and saw this thread is still going on.
To answer a few questions asked of me…
Everest’s dam was probably a sabino…four white socks and a blaze.
Counterclaim’s dam was what I had discribed to me when I bought her (before we knew so much) as a minimmal white tobiano…she had four white socks, a lightening bolt over her shoulder and a slim white blaze.
she was a gorgeous blue black . Perhaps she did have some sort of a sabino or splash in there too. I know there are a few Art Deco’s with blue eyes, so I just assumed it came from there.
Interestingly, Counterclaim has NEVER thrown those blue eyes…He just had a foal this week by a sabino mare that turned out black and white with dark eyes…so what would you think would bring them out? That is another issue I tried to research (the blue eyes) but never found anyone who could tell me anything (even the APHA and APtHA people)

Claim to Fame has often thrown his perfect white star, but never any more face white than that unless the mare had a huge blaze…

Another issue this thread hasn’t mentioned is the difference in the “lines” of the patterns. Sometimes there is a black line covered with white hair…sort of a “lacey” look…and then there are crisp lines, like CTF.
I forget the name for the bleeding white…but does this come into play in this discussion?

LOL, yeah, no matter when it all fades away LOL I do think if your foal had been chestnut there would have been more white

Would love to see a picture if there’s one around. That could easily describe Splash

Counterclaim’s dam was what I had discribed to me when I bought her (before we knew so much) as a minimmal white tobiano…she had four white socks, a lightening bolt over her shoulder and a slim white blaze.
she was a gorgeous blue black . Perhaps she did have some sort of a sabino or splash in there too. I know there are a few Art Deco’s with blue eyes, so I just assumed it came from there.

She was definitely also Splash and/or Sabino if she had face white. If that white was crooked, or heavier at the bottom, then while it may have been Sabino, it was also Splash.

Interestingly, Counterclaim has NEVER thrown those blue eyes…He just had a foal this week by a sabino mare that turned out black and white with dark eyes…so what would you think would bring them out? That is another issue I tried to research (the blue eyes) but never found anyone who could tell me anything (even the APHA and APtHA people)

Splash does the blue eyes, but it’s not reliable or predictable. I DO think blue eyes with Splash is more common in certain breeds - seems more prevalent in minis and Welsh

Claim to Fame has often thrown his perfect white star, but never any more face white than that unless the mare had a huge blaze…

Interesting…

Another issue this thread hasn’t mentioned is the difference in the “lines” of the patterns. Sometimes there is a black line covered with white hair…sort of a “lacey” look…and then there are crisp lines, like CTF. I forget the name for the bleeding white…but does this come into play in this discussion?

[/quote]

Both Tobiano, with the lacey markings called ghost marks. But no, not related to anything but Tobi :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=florida foxhunter;5563757]

Everest’s dam was probably a sabino…four white socks and a blaze.

Counterclaim’s dam was what I had discribed to me when I bought her (before we knew so much) as a minimmal white tobiano…she had four white socks, a lightening bolt over her shoulder and a slim white blaze.
she was a gorgeous blue black . Perhaps she did have some sort of a sabino or splash in there too. I know there are a few Art Deco’s with blue eyes, so I just assumed it came from there.

Interestingly, Counterclaim has NEVER thrown those blue eyes…He just had a foal this week by a sabino mare that turned out black and white with dark eyes…so what would you think would bring them out? That is another issue I tried to research (the blue eyes) but never found anyone who could tell me anything (even the APHA and APtHA people)

Claim to Fame has often thrown his perfect white star, but never any more face white than that unless the mare had a huge blaze…

Another issue this thread hasn’t mentioned is the difference in the “lines” of the patterns. Sometimes there is a black line covered with white hair…sort of a “lacey” look…and then there are crisp lines, like CTF.
I forget the name for the bleeding white…but does this come into play in this discussion?[/QUOTE]

Blue eyes…frame overo (OLWS) or splash white overo (no test). Sabino doesn’t make blues. I have a LOT of blues in my herd from splash mixed in with the tobiano. Ranges from a fleck of blue in one minimal splash mare (her sire was a moderate splash grullo with two blue eyes, dam was a QH), a fleck in one tobiano (only hint of splash in her) to one grandson of the first mare that was bay tobiano with two blues…striking…and a bay minimal splash son of the same mare with one brown, one blue. The overlap of colored skin and white hair that gives that “lacey” or “bleeding” edge to markings used to be thought to be indicative of homozygous genetics but no longer thought that way. Many of mine have it while a few don’t and it doesn’t correlate to HZ…not sure that it really indicates anything. It is kind of cool though, especially in black/white horses.

Facial and leg white can give hints about whether the pattern you are looking at is splash white or sabino. Splashes tend to have level, smooth edged tops to leg markings while sabino tends to lacey, speckled edges with the white running up the back of the front legs toward the knee or even the elbow and up the front of the back legs toward hock or even stifle. Face markings are a bit harder but splash face markings tend to go big and wide and to have flat tops to them and widen down over the muzzle and have smooth edges… while sabino can be wide as well but pointy topped and with lacey/jagged edges and occasionally with freckles within the white and they sometimes have “mustache” markings…a patch of colored skin on the upper lip or the corner of the mouth…if in the corner of the mouth it can be pretty good sized…sometimes almost or actually connecting with pigmented areas around the eyes/base of the ears…usually will have a circular appearance to it outlined in the white coming down the side of the muzzle from the blaze and up from the white under the jaw.

I am really glad for this thread, as I used to think one of my mares (spotted draft…probably clyde) was simply Tobiano. Now I learn that facial white markings and one very blue, one partial blue eye, means there is something else in there from a color genetics standpoint…which could be frame, eh?
She has a filly by a Hol/TB…the only thing in the sire’s pedigree which may be of concern, is the TB Naevus…but I think he is considered sabino, with no chance of frame…I think.
Anyway, I now know it’s best if I have testing done.

Mare is bay, one blue, one partial blue eye, diamond on forehead, another diamond on muzzle, and a white spot on throatlatch. Filly is bay, has white blaze, no blue eyes, white spot on throatlatch, and a rim of color around her chestnuts. Pics here:
http://www.selahwaysporthorses.com/dollyhallie.html?r=20110423114536

[QUOTE=JB;5564482]
LOL, yeah, no matter when it all fades away LOL I do think if your foal had been chestnut there would have been more white[/QUOTE]

I’d much rather have a bay with minimal white than a loud chestnut!

[QUOTE=selah;5564766]
I am really glad for this thread, as I used to think one of my mares (spotted draft…probably clyde) was simply Tobiano. Now I learn that facial white markings and one very blue, one partial blue eye, means there is something else in there from a color genetics standpoint…which could be frame, eh?
She has a filly by a Hol/TB…the only thing in the sire’s pedigree which may be of concern, is the TB Naevus…but I think he is considered sabino, with no chance of frame…I think.
Anyway, I now know it’s best if I have testing done.

Mare is bay, one blue, one partial blue eye, diamond on forehead, another diamond on muzzle, and a white spot on throatlatch. Filly is bay, has white blaze, no blue eyes, white spot on throatlatch, and a rim of color around her chestnuts. Pics here:
http://www.selahwaysporthorses.com/dollyhallie.html?r=20110423114536[/QUOTE]

Test for OLWS…if positive then there is frame and your blues are probably from that. If negative then your blues are from splash. Frame does exist in TB’s although it almost never shows (suggesting a probably dominant or possibly homozygous gene for suppression) so testing even in a horse that shows no signs of carrying frame is worth the cost. Lethal white foals are not fun.

Very cute foal. Blaze suggests possible splash…almost flat across the top and widening down over muzzle. Splash CAN produce blue eyes as can frame but neither HAS to so you can have splash or frame (or a combo) without blue eyes showing up at all.

I doubt that horse is Frame. I’m one who does not believe Frame can put blue eyes on LOL I totally say it’s Splash here.