[QUOTE=florida foxhunter;5563757]
Everest’s dam was probably a sabino…four white socks and a blaze.
Counterclaim’s dam was what I had discribed to me when I bought her (before we knew so much) as a minimmal white tobiano…she had four white socks, a lightening bolt over her shoulder and a slim white blaze.
she was a gorgeous blue black . Perhaps she did have some sort of a sabino or splash in there too. I know there are a few Art Deco’s with blue eyes, so I just assumed it came from there.
Interestingly, Counterclaim has NEVER thrown those blue eyes…He just had a foal this week by a sabino mare that turned out black and white with dark eyes…so what would you think would bring them out? That is another issue I tried to research (the blue eyes) but never found anyone who could tell me anything (even the APHA and APtHA people)
Claim to Fame has often thrown his perfect white star, but never any more face white than that unless the mare had a huge blaze…
Another issue this thread hasn’t mentioned is the difference in the “lines” of the patterns. Sometimes there is a black line covered with white hair…sort of a “lacey” look…and then there are crisp lines, like CTF.
I forget the name for the bleeding white…but does this come into play in this discussion?[/QUOTE]
Blue eyes…frame overo (OLWS) or splash white overo (no test). Sabino doesn’t make blues. I have a LOT of blues in my herd from splash mixed in with the tobiano. Ranges from a fleck of blue in one minimal splash mare (her sire was a moderate splash grullo with two blue eyes, dam was a QH), a fleck in one tobiano (only hint of splash in her) to one grandson of the first mare that was bay tobiano with two blues…striking…and a bay minimal splash son of the same mare with one brown, one blue. The overlap of colored skin and white hair that gives that “lacey” or “bleeding” edge to markings used to be thought to be indicative of homozygous genetics but no longer thought that way. Many of mine have it while a few don’t and it doesn’t correlate to HZ…not sure that it really indicates anything. It is kind of cool though, especially in black/white horses.
Facial and leg white can give hints about whether the pattern you are looking at is splash white or sabino. Splashes tend to have level, smooth edged tops to leg markings while sabino tends to lacey, speckled edges with the white running up the back of the front legs toward the knee or even the elbow and up the front of the back legs toward hock or even stifle. Face markings are a bit harder but splash face markings tend to go big and wide and to have flat tops to them and widen down over the muzzle and have smooth edges… while sabino can be wide as well but pointy topped and with lacey/jagged edges and occasionally with freckles within the white and they sometimes have “mustache” markings…a patch of colored skin on the upper lip or the corner of the mouth…if in the corner of the mouth it can be pretty good sized…sometimes almost or actually connecting with pigmented areas around the eyes/base of the ears…usually will have a circular appearance to it outlined in the white coming down the side of the muzzle from the blaze and up from the white under the jaw.