JB/Riddlemethis…please explain the DW5 from the Puchilingui lines. Even though our two Puchi line stallions are gone, Puchi’s Rambo and Jagged Illusion, we still have 6 of their daughters that we plan to breed in the future. Thanks. Jackie
Not sure what you mean. There are 12 identified DW mutations so far. DW1-DW12. DW5 is the one that has reliably been identified in the Puchi line. Not 6 or 11 or 8, just 5.
So, while that doesn’t mean 5 doesn’t exist in other lines (though not very likely at all), it means that Puchi horses test for DW5.
So, if you tested them, they would undoubtedly test positive for DW5.
OK…I have a few STUPID Questions. I’ve never dealt much in the Overo genes, because it wasn’t something I was trying to breed…but there is so much info on this thread I’d like to know more.
Stupid question #1…what does OWLS stand for?
Stupid questin #2…obviously JB knows more than your average breeder, why???
Stupid question #3…so what is a “crop out”?? …usually referred to as a TB with a belly spot… Is this now known as a splash?
I have a boarder at my farm with a bay mare with four white socks and a wide blaze. She was just tested and is NOT Sabino1 (which surprised me I must admit)…so is she probably splash? There are no white markings above her knees or on her body…
I’ll have to look for Everett’s dam’s photos. MAYBE it’s still on my computer. She was a nice black warmblood mare with three white socks (not as high as Popeye K’s) and a wide blaze, but not what I’d call a “bald” face…She lives south of Aiken SC…
Stupid question 1: It’s “OLWS”, Overo Lethal White Syndrome. Two copies of the gene result in a white foal with an incomplete digestive tract who will die within a couple days of birth.
Stupid question 3: I believe a crop out is simply a term meaning a foal who is colored without having colored parents.
[QUOTE=florida foxhunter;5566027]
OK…I have a few STUPID Questions. I’ve never dealt much in the Overo genes, because it wasn’t something I was trying to breed…but there is so much info on this thread I’d like to know more.
Stupid question #1…what does OWLS stand for?
Stupid questin #2…obviously JB knows more than your average breeder, why???
Stupid question #3…so what is a “crop out”?? …usually referred to as a TB with a belly spot… Is this now known as a splash?
I have a boarder at my farm with a bay mare with four white socks and a wide blaze. She was just tested and is NOT Sabino1 (which surprised me I must admit)…so is she probably splash? There are no white markings above her knees or on her body…
I’ll have to look for Everett’s dam’s photos. MAYBE it’s still on my computer. She was a nice black warmblood mare with three white socks (not as high as Popeye K’s) and a wide blaze, but not what I’d call a “bald” face…She lives south of Aiken SC…[/QUOTE]
not stupid questions at all!
1)OLWS is Overo Leathal White Syndrome. It is present only in the frame overo pattern. If a foal is homozyogus for OLWS it is born pure white. (Why JB said it must have been a shocker when my white colt was born to a couple minimally marked parents. ) All homozygous OLWS foals are born white but not all white foals have OLWS: they can also be homozygous for sabino or dominant white. OLWS is deadly. The innervation to the intestine is missing so when the foal stands and nurses he colics and dies a horrible death of colic within a few hours. Sabino and Tobiano are modifications of the KIT gene. It modifies expresssion of the proteins that control color resulting in white expression. It is not a defective gene though…just a protein modifier. Last I knew they did not yet know what splash is. Frame however is a gene muatation.It is on a different gene and is actually a genetic defect. In it’s homozygous form you get OLWS. As far as I know all of frame overos are OLWS carriers. Since there is a DNA test for OLWS there isn’t really any excuse for breeders of frame overos to breed 2 frames together and have 25% chance of getting that dreaded OLWS foal…but people don’t test (even many who do know better…it’s not just those that don’t know). Anyone breeding Paints should DNA test for OLWS as it is common in Paints, not uncommon in QHs and a few bloodlines of TBs carry it though uncommon. You cannot necessarily see if a horse is a carrier:OLWS and frame expression can be hidden and can be lurking in a perfectly solid colored horse. So…getting back to my unexpected pure white colt: I was not worried at all as I know both the sire and the dam are tested as OLWS negative.
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I don’t know JBs background/would be curious to know too!
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cropout is a colored horse that pops up from 2 solid parents. It is not uncommon in the overo patterns. The gene was always there…but the expression is supressed. It is very rare in tobianos. In tobis you very rarely get a slipped tobiano: a tobi that is so minimally marked that it looks solid. It’s still gentically tobiano though. The thing with the overos is that generally the base color affects the expression more. For the most part, red/chestnut enhances white expression and black supresses white expression. Again the example of my white colt out of a bay minimal overo sire and a black minimal overo mare. Both carry a recessive red as well. And the colt is in fact a chestnut (under all that white…DNA tested to say so!). A cropout can be any form of overo: splash, frame or sabino. It happens occasionally in TBs and frequently in QHs…as well as a number of other breeds.
SB1: TBs and Arabs test not postive for SB1. It is called SB1 as they know there are more that one SB marker. It’t just that 1 is the one there is a commercially available test for. All homozygous SB1 horses are white (or nearly so) but not all white horses are positive for SB1…so they are DW or another sabino that someday there will be a test for…
Nonsense 
Questions are not stupid if 1) you have never had them answered and 2) you really want to know the answers 
:winkgrin:
I’ve never dealt much in the Overo genes, because it wasn’t something I was trying to breed…but there is so much info on this thread I’d like to know more.
The only Overo pattern that people breed for, in general, is Frame, and that’s pretty limited to the Paint world. There are some specific breeders who are very much into the Splash pattern though (outside the Paint world) But no, people don’t tend to breed for Sabino LOL There is a small but slowly growing group of folks who are purposefully putting Dominant White into their program
Stupid question #1…what does OWLS stand for?
OLWS :lol: Overo Lethal White Syndrome, aka “Lethal White”. It’s related to, and ONLY to, Frame Overo. The Frame gene IS the OLWS gene, but in the heterozygous state, it is perfectly fine. It may not be expressed in the slightest, not a single white hair, though other patterns may be present. Or it may be a VERY obviously Frame pattern, like Cocolalla Creek’s Radikal (who also has Splash, look at his head), or it can be anything inbetween. In a Tobiano-looking horse, it may be the reason the color edges are jagged instead of smooth.
But in the homozygous form, it results in an incomplete intestinal tract, the foal cannot pass manure, there is no surgery for it, and the foal WILL die of an impaction if he is not put down. These foals are all white, maybe a smidge of color at the poll. They are NOT to be confused with a maximally expressed Sabino, or a maximally expressed Dominant White. Because there is an easy, inexpensive test for Frame/OLWS, it is a 100% preventable issue.
Stupid questin #2…obviously JB knows more than your average breeder, why???
:lol::lol::lol: I just became a breeder this year, if you could even call me that LOL But I’ve been utterly fascinated with color genetics for a long time, so I’ve learned a great deal about it 
Stupid question #3…so what is a “crop out”?? …usually referred to as a TB with a belly spot… Is this now known as a splash?
It’s a term used to denote any horse who has “pinto spots” that the parents didn’t have. APHA usually uses this though I’m not sure they originated it. They don’t consider normal white markings - legs, face - to be pinto-related, but if 2 of those horses, or 2 horses with less than that, or nothing at all, produce a horse who, by THEIR definition, is a “pinto”, ie white above the knees/hocks, big enough white under the midline of the head, belly spots, etc, it’s a “crop out”. the white markings “cropped out of nowhere”.
Splash is likely to cause a great deal of these. But since, per above, Frame can exist on a totally solid horse, or be blatantly visible, 2 “solid” horses can produce a very loud Frame Overo and that would be considered a crop-out foal.
I have a boarder at my farm with a bay mare with four white socks and a wide blaze. She was just tested and is NOT Sabino1 (which surprised me I must admit)…so is she probably splash? There are no white markings above her knees or on her body…
No surprise there. Lots of horses don’t test for it. Also, she may not be Sabino at all - all her white markings, especially since you say it’s a wide blaze, may be from Splash. If the socks look fairly horizontal, it’s undoubtedly Splash
I’ll have to look for Everett’s dam’s photos. MAYBE it’s still on my computer. She was a nice black warmblood mare with three white socks (not as high as Popeye K’s) and a wide blaze, but not what I’d call a “bald” face…She lives south of Aiken SC…
The “bald” face is typical of Splash. I do hope you can find a picture of her!
the color linkage thing is generally quite strong with the red/overo affinity. In Paints and tobiano it does not matter so much…there are plenty of chestnut tobianos running around…but WBs are a whole nuter matter. In the WB lines almost all the pintos are black based (black or bay) and chestnut tobis are very rare.
JB, do blue eyes = splash?
There is no color linkage between chestnut and frame.
In Paints and tobiano it does not matter so much…there are plenty of chestnut tobianos running around…but WBs are a whole nuter matter. In the WB lines almost all the pintos are black based (black or bay) and chestnut tobis are very rare.
It DOES matter in paints and ESPECIALLY tobianos. Tobiano is ALWAYS linked to one extension or another. Its just more obvious in warmbloods because theres only one major source.
Splash or frame, depending on who you ask, and assuming the horse isnt a double dilute.
Pinto WBs have at least 2 sources though - not everything is Samber But Samber IS the major source, and that line has Tobiano linked to E. Exceptions show up as a crossover to e, and from then on down, you can much more easily get the chestnut Tobis.
The blue eyes of Splash are a different blue from the double dilutes, but yes, IMHO, Splash is the cause, not Frame, when it comes to the Overo-related blue eyes.
[QUOTE=JB;5550327]
Obviously the “genetisist” knows nothing about “paints” LOL
Most of what she said is pretty true, but there isn’t “really no chance that a solid warmblood mare crossed with a sabino would produce anything more than the chrome you have seen.” - the chances are just really low.[/QUOTE]
This is what the geneticist said regarding WARMBLOOD mare/stallion cross with no paint genetics involved…
“BECAUSE TWO SOLID WARMBLOODS WITH CHROME WILL NOT MAKE A 75% WHITE BABY UNLESS ONE HAS A PAINT/PINTO IN ITS ANCESTORY AN A FREAK CROP-OUT OCCURS.”
[QUOTE=JB;5566543]
The blue eyes of Splash are a different blue from the double dilutes, but yes, IMHO, Splash is the cause, not Frame, when it comes to the Overo-related blue eyes.[/QUOTE]
Can you describe the difference in the look of the blue eyes of splash and those of double dilute?
BTW, I ran across this JC TB genetically tested frame stallion:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/blue+eyed+streaker
It’s not “Paint” genetics, it’s pinto genetics, and they work the same Frame is Frame, Tobiano is Tobiano, Sabino, Splash, Dominant White. If they are there, they work the same (with few exceptions)
BTW, I ran across this JC TB genetically tested frame stallion:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/blue+eyed+streaker
Yep, he’s one of them
Ellusive Look through is sire line
Racey Remarque’s line, ie Remarquez
with the latter being a very quiet Frame pattern
there are others too
[QUOTE=selah;5567135]
Can you describe the difference in the look of the blue eyes of splash and those of double dilute?
BTW, I ran across this JC TB genetically tested frame stallion:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/blue+eyed+streaker[/QUOTE]
BES and the Racey Remarque family are the 2 I know of in TBs that carry frame
[QUOTE=JumpinBeans81;5566961]
This is what the geneticist said regarding WARMBLOOD mare/stallion cross with no paint genetics involved…
“BECAUSE TWO SOLID WARMBLOODS WITH CHROME WILL NOT MAKE A 75% WHITE BABY UNLESS ONE HAS A PAINT/PINTO IN ITS ANCESTORY AN A FREAK CROP-OUT OCCURS.”[/QUOTE]
But “chrome” is considered at least by some to be evidence of overo genes at work…usually splash white or sabino, occasionally frame. The fact that horses that have been solids with some chrome for generations and then produce a cropout is evidence that those genes are there in those solid horses. And the % of white is wildly variable. The Paints and Pintos came about BECAUSE of the overo genes in otherwise solid colored breeds. ALL overos are at some point in thier background cropouts…could be a generation or two back or 100 generations back. Tobiano, being dominant, is the only “Paint” or “Pinto” pattern that doesn’t exist in solid horses (with the exceptions of the “slipped” tobianos…but they had a tobiano parent). The Paint association for instance was formed because of “excessive white” foals resulting from QH breeding or bloodlines that were the foundation of the QH (mostly TB crossed on Spanish blood horses from the SE and the SW). And AQHA has tried for over 60 years now to eliminate the white genes from the gene pool…and dismally failed and finally gave up (with some legal and financial incentives).
The term “crop out” was coined back before the inheritance of overo was understood.
Going back to pre 1995 it was believed that overo was a single gene and was recessive. A horse that was O/o would not be overo. A horse that was o/o would be overo. The only way to “know” if your horse carried -o was for it to produce a “crop out” (or to have been produced from an overo) The only way to avoid a lethal white foal was to avoid breeding two obvious overos to each other- although lethals still happened so the o/o hypothesis was not satisfactory.
The discovery of the truth of Overo genetics was a big shockwave for anyone breeding color horses. I remember when the article “The New Genetics of Overo” was published.
littleum, you have it backwards - capital letters are the “presence”, lowercase is the absence. So, O/o IS Overo. o/o would not be overo (in your context).
[QUOTE=JB;5568741]
littleum, you have it backwards - capital letters are the “presence”, lowercase is the absence. So, O/o IS Overo. o/o would not be overo (in your context).[/QUOTE]
I think she has it right JB…at one time “overo” was thought to be a single recessive gene so would be lower case (like “e” for red)…oo would homozygous for a recessive overo gene…I remember seeing squares showing “S” for the dominant “solid” and “o” for the recessive “overo” and showing how So horse bred to So horse would only give you a one in four shot at oo which was thought to be “overo”…things have changed a lot since then. Caps are for dominants so something that is recessive would be lower case and homozygous recessive would be two lower case.
I don’t usually follow color breeding, but I have a friend wanting to breed to a “high color” jumper stallion.
So I am curious about these stallions.
Balou du Rouet, who is bay with 4 high but otherwise fairly normal looking stockings. He also has a blaze with some interesting spots in it, and apparently throws pretty colorful foals from time to time.
http://www.schockemoehle.com/en/service-station-stud/breeding-stallions/?details=2&cHash=6efaa5fb98
His son Banderas ( http://www.dreamscapefarm.com/HorseDetail.aspx?ID=289 ) is bay with a spotty blaze and 3 stockings, and sired this colt - check out his stockings. http://www.dreamscapefarm.com/HorseDetail.aspx?ID=417
Atlantus, who is chestnut with a spotty blaze and 4 wild looking stockings.
http://www.schockemoehle.com/en/service-station-stud/breeding-stallions/?details=110&cHash=d2c924d158
So what color pattern is going on with these guys?
