Sad situations that are going to be happening too much...

To me the ideal solution to this would be for the horses to remain under state control until the fences were repaired and shelter of an acceptable form provided. Once that’s done, horses would be returned, all charges dropped, and the State can get back to trying to deal with starving animals.

Yeah, well statutes and statute enforcement being what they are, such compromises are not generally possible.

It gets very complicated once the seizure has occurred. A lawyer could explain it to you.

It is not OK, and quite possibly grounds for cruelty charges to leave large animals adjacent to a road without adequate containment.

BTW how’s that rescue dog Angel doing?

takes me back…

[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;5160538]
no no this is where we “puff puff pass”
the singing (or unstoppable giggling) comes in about 30 min;)

Tamara in TN[/QUOTE]

Hey Tamara, thanx for the head rush, man. Peace.

[QUOTE=Coanteen;5161465]
Everyone’s working off assumptions, even the one person who’s in contact with PP. I’m saying that many of those who point out that the “anti-PP” people are making assumptions about PP are making their own assumptions, about AC, the cops, the neighbors, the vet, conspiracies, etc. Occasionally to a downright comical degree, like the person who suggested that maybe the neighbors themselves were the pet sitters and then sneakily turned around and claimed PP abandoned the horses.

Here’s more assumptions: maybe AC had PP’s home number (if she has one, another assumption), but not a cell. Maybe the cell battery died. Maybe by some regulation the note on the door is how they are supposed to officially communicate with potential seizure cases. Maybe it is not AC’s role or problem to investigate the possibility that PP may be lying dead in a ditch somewhere within the continental US.

Why is it not ok to make negative assumptions about PP, but perfectly ok to cast aspersions on anyone involved with the seizure?[/QUOTE]

That’s kind of where I’m standing, also.

It was no one’s responsibility, besides PP, to ensure she could be contacted at the WEG. I believe (correct me if it’s not really fact) she was informed about the seizure through a member here roughly 48 hours after it happened. Even if there was a daily sitter and they died in a fiery car crash on Tuesday morning before AC first showed up, isn’t it odd she was out of touch with her beloved horses for at least those days we know of? I could understand that in a big barn with reliable caregivers and multiple people coming and going for back-up, but not so much in a private barn. Adding in she was already living on the edge with AC and the ongoing loose horse issue, I think it’s totally bizarre she wasn’t checking in with someone at least once a day.

So we’re now on to pa![](e 63 and we’ve still got folks striving to defend and justify minimum standards of care.

We’ve still got folks who don’t actually KNOW PP making up little stories about what she’s really like.

We still haven’t got a single person actually come out and say “My real name is ****** and I really do know her. Have done for years and have been to her premises often and including recently”

This post has been an absolute eye opener for me.

It ALWAYS concerns me when people talk (or post) about shopping for saddles, boots and such nonsense, whilst moaning about the cost of hay, fencing and veterinary treatment.

What worries me is not the hoarder/owner but the horse/s in those situations! I’ve never known a horse yet suffer or die from an owner having old boots or a saddle that’s not quite the right colour!

I well remember reading about PP’s numerous horses and her stallion AND her poor fencing and bad breeding experiences. The new born foal in a basic canvas frame tent construction that collapsed finished it for me and some time ago!!

What’s shaken me though is the shed load of others who have crawled out to defend such negligence!

Now some of them are ones I’d already got in my “whack job” category but others I’m amazed at!

I’ve also lost all respect for a heck of a lot of other posters as a result of that thread. Particularly all who purport to be professional breeders and trainers and involved with “rescues”.

What the heck is wrong with people. Defending the right to be bad because the horses aren’t actually starving and close to death or beaten within an inch of their lives!!!

Don’t some realise that’s just the tip of the iceberg and underneath it’s this sort of “owner” that pisses people off BIG STYLE and contributes directly to misery for horses and over production of low end ones destined for that market.

Getting run over because there’s no fence isn’t fun! Having to put up with chronic conditions because your owner is scratting around to buy food and for sure won’t be affording significant vet care is the first step to dead and gone!

And all this when the owner is shopping for saddles!

And now we have folks here who still don’t know the true circumstances and haven’t even met her, suggesting having a collection and donating to keep it all going!

UNBELIEVABLE!!!

[QUOTE=mbm;5160575]
well, obviously the person i was speaking too didn’t get it. at all. maybe still doesn’t?

glad to hear you understood what i was trying to say.[/QUOTE] Make that plural. Whilst I can read what you type, repeatedly! I don’t understand how the heck you can think that there’s a possibility that it might just be cruel to keep a horse without having a shelter.

I don’t get it! I don’t want to either!

[QUOTE=grayarabs;5160796]Just read the latest link provided regarding her shelters. And saw the photos.
Shelters like that make a heck of a lot of sense now that I think about it. I have seen portable canvas stalls etc at barns and shows. Never thought about doing something similar for run-ins. I like the concept and it appears that PP was working on improving her design. After going through the hurricanes/tornados past years and worrying so badly about flying debris - I would really give serious thought to “going canvas”. PP makes good points regarding her experiences and observations and her decision to build as she did.

(Appjumper I sent you a PM)[/QUOTE] Excuse me whilst I piss myself laughing! You honestly and truthfully think that a poxy canvas shelter is a good plan for a winter.

Clearly you don’t have a clue!!!

I’ve just had to relocate a load of my horses because of work that was being undertaken on pylons on my land. I’ve moved them to a field well out of the way and just for 6/8 months.

I sought advice from my insurers, my vet, building regulators, my local authority AND providers of field shelters and stabling.

Conclusion:

http://www.lhwoodhouse.co.uk/stables/quickstable

http://www.equilinestables.co.uk/temporary-stables.htm

not suitable for anything other than a few weeks and not where there’s any risk of snow or winds more than gusting to 20mph.

So this is what I’ve had to do this year:

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/classic_carriages/new%20location/DSCF0021.jpg)

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/classic_carriages/new%20location/DSCF0040.jpg)

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/classic_carriages/new%20location/DSCF0022.jpg)

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/classic_carriages/new%20location/DSCF0023-1.jpg)

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/classic_carriages/new%20location/DSCF0055.jpg)

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/classic_carriages/new%20location/DSCF00052.jpg)

If only I’d realised there were so many suckers about I could have just let my horses stand out on an open hill and waited for attention from the RSPCA and then get someone to post about it here and wait for some money to come via Paypal from suckers on COTH to fund my lifestyle.

Heck, if I’d done that then I could have gone off to America instead of having to flog my guts out working to pay for and then build those darn shelters.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;5161081]Given the circumstances of the seizure, I would consider her a victim. And I’m not saying she IS poor and powerless, just that she is being treated by the system as if she were.[/QUOTE] Her horses were confiscated because she had no fencing and no shelter. I’ve no doubt that one of the reasons they’ve been confiscated is because she had no fencing they’d become a nuisance to others.

It’s got nothing to do with how much money and power she has. It’s wholly down to how she managed her horses and her relationship with Animal Control and her neighbours.

IF she was a victim, then she made herself one!

[QUOTE=Angela Freda;5161388]
And what efforts did they take to find her or get hold of her? [/QUOTE] Well it seems that no-one here knows.

The neighbors knew she left the state. That’s an interesting piece of information. How did they know that, by following her to the state line?Or because she mentioned it or her trip or they heard of it through the grapevine most small towns have rampantly growing in them?
for goodness sakes, you don’t have to be robocob to work that one out!!! I’d say one brain cell more than a cabbage would do it!

Maybe they saw her with a suitcase with a luggage label tagged to say WEG. Maybe she told them. Maybe they knew the same way as I did! They could have read it on COTH!!!

And if the neighbors knew she was away, and perhaps where and why, seems to me some actual investigating might have gone a long way to contacting her. Yes I know, asking them to spend time investigating is so much more effort than rounding up and trailering those horses and then caring for them for weeks or months while this plays out.
Erm she was at the World Equestrian Games! We all know that!

So were the neighbours and the Animal Welfare folks supposed to have left her horses running up and down the road until they tracked her down and dragged her back!

If the horses were seized because they were loose, which it appears you are assuming, well… they weren’t. The neighbors, at the advice of AC, contained them. Ie, problem solved, so why seize?
You might need to go back and read again.

It seems to me that the neighbours thought she’d abandoned them and hadn’t seen anyone come to attend them at all for days.

It seems to me that some were out and some were still behind the poxy white tape that had no charge in it. It seems to me that her neighbours managed to herd 3 of them into a makeshift round pen that had NO WATER and NO FOOD!!!

To help you, I’ve bolded why that just might not be the end of the problem.

Leave them where they are, and keep trying to contact her to apprise her of the problem, and work out a solution to tide over until she gets back.
Phooey!

Maybe, just maybe had they contacted her they would have learned of the sitter and could have found local help with the situation? Heck, maybe wait around for the sitter to show up and figure out how to best contain the animals until PP returned.
Get a clue and go figure!!!

All of that sure would have saved the town/county/state the cost of housing and caring for animals that otherwise [based on the limited evidence of video/pics we have here] did not need intervention.
It would indeed except that PP was away enjoying herself and the sitter didn’t turn up and phone AC as per the request on the notice that was posted on the premises gate.

If they seized them because there was no food or water… well explain to me how that is evidence of anything in light of the actual condition of the horses, save the bay who may be thin for a myriad of reasons we, nor AC for that matter, are aware of. I honestly don’t care if you feed your horse every other day or 50 times a day as long as it suits his needs and he is otherwise healthy. There is no one way to care for all horses.
Remind me never to come to you for advice on good standards of care for horses or for evaluation of condition (of horse or environment!)

I have no idea what the motive there was,
I bet!

I can also regale you with stories … And sometimes they can leave you scratching your head.
Like in this case.
I bet!

[QUOTE=Angela Freda;5161449]I am suggesting only that they should have tried a little harder than leaving a note on her gate, to contact her. Had they done so them building anything or repairing anything would not have been necessary. They would have learned of the sitter, could have contacted sitter and sitter, charged with the care of these animals in PPs absence, could have done the building/repairing. That is what I am suggesting.
Investigate. Instead of assume.
Perhaps they did and that incredible reporting simply left out that one detail. As someone pointed out she could have been dead in a ditch, in a hospital, or otherwise indisposed for all they knew.

Are you really suggesting that it is A-ok for AC to come to your property and take your animals without contacting you, assuming abandonment because the neighbors say you left the state? What if one of those horses has choke, a cat or dog was diabetic, or there were other medical issues they need to know before they take them into their care? Even just to be aware of the needs of the individual animals, it makes sense they would try to reach her.

As noted above by Appjumper, it is possible that the AC had or should have had contact info for PP and should have either used that or found it and tried to contact her.
Again, far cheaper to make a few phone calls and/or drive a few places [feed store, her former place of employment as a dispatcher [hello!], Vet, etc] to see if you could locate her, than to wrangle all those horses and haul them away and care for them for months over less than stellar fencing.
I mean if it was known she had ‘left the state’, it’s safe to also assume these people knew her current/past place of employment.

Had they contacted her or otherwise looked into it they may have learned she had a sitter, either from PP or others who knew she was out of state.

AC working off assumptions as you suggest they may have, particularly when they are not horsey, is a very sobering thought we should all think long and hard about before we give it the thumbs up. Even in theory. [/QUOTE]

She wasn’t dead in a ditch!

She was at the World Equestrian Games. We all know that from PP’s own account. Unless of course the whole thing was a tissue of lies and really she was just holed up at home!!!

You DON’T know that it’s a fact she had a sitter. No one does!

We know that she said here she was trying to get one organised.

We don’t know what she actually did. We don’t know if “sitter” just meant someone to come along and count them every 2 days and make sure they’d not escaped and gone too far away or if she’d had someone live in. Though I presume not the latter as it was just kittens they found in the trailer: not PP ill or dad and not a sitter!!!

It’s standard practice for AC to place statutory notices on entrances if they suspect there’s abandonment.

Same here in the UK as it is apparently over there.

We know there was one yellow sign on one shabliy tied up “gate” and we know the property is accessed from roadside via that entrance. We know it was a 24 hour notice and then amended to 12 hours. Again that’s what happens here. We don’t know if they stuck others say on the trailer door or on empty water troughs. Here that’s what also happens. But we don’t know because we only saw what was filmed.

But it was a bloody great yellow sign as plain as the nose on my face!

[QUOTE=AppJumpr08;5161412]
I also want to pose a question to the masses.

If PP’s horses were a known issue to the ACO, and had gotten out in the past, and he’d had to deal with them, and there was an open investigation that had been going on for a year, how is it that the ACO didn’t have a single phone number to reach her at?[/QUOTE] Hey why don’t you ask her for yourself. You’re the one who is defending her and looking forward to helping her. After you’ve met her that is!

Thomas, I usually love what you have to say.

But I think in this case you are way off base.

I don’t think we are discussing minimal standards of care.
We are talking about something completely different. The horse issue is really just the vehicle.

I am in awe at this quagmire!
Past performance of AC across the country has shown it’s too damn hard to get them to do anything when obvious neglect is ongoing, yet here they are on the ball.

Neighbors are way to gleeful about the happenings.

The ‘news’ papere article is a mess (and only after finishing ‘The Elements of Journalism’ by Bill Kovach and Tom Rosenstiel this past week did I realize why: it was poorly research and drawn to sensationalize, good book, everybody should read it!)

I understand there are at least 2 sides to the story. I learned that lesson as a teen back home when the tabloids picked up on a story of a ‘poor man’ who was hated by the community for no reason - naturally they did not ask his neighbors about what an asshat he was, throwing wrenches into every gear of communal life…long story, maybe on OT day I retell it in all it’s glory.

The ‘journalist’ failed to get to the bottom of the story.

And thus we are here, 2 weeks later, still ASSuming.

As the law about shelter is written, she was not in violation of it.

Being away from the farm is not a crime.

But to some people just being who you are can be a thorn in their sides, no matter what you do.

And, to revisit Viney’s point, when you belong to a certain demographic you are, too, fighting an uphill battle in the judicial system. And it has little to do with real $$ value.

CatsonLap, Angel has a new family. Typically suburban with two small kids. She choose them herself, and they love having her. They have an elderly golden retriever that she adores. She’s living the life she wants to live with them. She’s happy and they are happy. I keep up with her.

I just wanted to add that my posts on building a small cheap barn was not to encourage others to pool funds to help her out, but to show that the cost of saddles, outfits, and 3 weeks off work could have paid for the needed barn. The time spent away could have also trimmed weeds, and added a few strands of H/T wire, or other electric fence to some added posts, to make the fencing more secure. Also to buy a solar charger, if one is not already in use.

I do not follow PPs posts, so was totally unaware that a foal was born in a collapsing tent.

My issues are totally with the pile on of the “starving horses”, that were obviously not starving.

Allowing horses to live in an environment that they have no, at least good natural shelter, is cruel IMO, but I don’t personally know if that is the case. Having a foal born anywhere near a collapsible tent is totally neglectful. Better to have no shelter at all.

If the horses get out regularly, no matter what the fencing, then it is severely neglectful, bordering on criminal. If the horses are contained except for once in many years, then that would be acceptable, also IMO. I have no way of knowing which is this case.

Water is life, and not up for debate.

Look, I’m thinking you are a very nice person who does work for Canter and loves to help horses in need. But really? I am guessing they DID have her home phone which would have done no good even if she has one, which many people don’t anymore. If she had a cell phone, those numbers aren’t generally listed anywhere. Nor can we be certain she had either a home or cell phone. You don’t know they didn’t try to call, that they didn’t try to find her. Were they supposed to check every hotel in the US? Or just check COTH and check every hotel in KY - oh, and OH too?

Do you really think the AC has investigators? All they really needed to know was if she was in town and available - hence the notice on her gate. It went unanswered. That was all they needed to know - no one was there or if they were they were not in contact with PP or if the did contact her, she did not respond. It all adds up to exactly the same thing as far a AC is concerned - no one to fix the fencing, no one to water, no one to move the round bales into the round pens.

There is a reason that most people who care for their horses themselves don’t vacation much. Most get hives just thinking about all that can go wrong while they are gone. Most everyone I know has had things go wrong when they’ve been gone. And they take responsibility for those things.

There is no way in hell I would expect a horse sitter to be able to repair fencing - at least not properly. Maybe, maybe temporarily - but would not expect it to hold. I’ve had full CC&C of my horses all my life, but have no idea how to properly fix electric fencing.

Viney - really? AC is just supposed to return her horses, no fuss no muss? The bottom line is that PP did not make adequate arrangements for her horses while she was gone. It wasn’t “bad luck” that her horses got out of that one strand fencing. It was inevitable. It had happened before, so it was no surprise. Why should the community have to bear the cost of cleaning up PP’s mess? Esp. when she technically a repeat offender?

SCFarm

1 Like

I don’t know why so many people are complaining. I say, good for the animal control in that town!

I wish the animal control in our area were half that good. I have sent them out to a 1/2 acre lot of land with 3 horse in mud up to their knees, a body condition score of 3 at best, hooves that hadn’t been attended to in many months, and algae-infested single water bucket for all three horses, sat in an inaccesible place. I had to call and call for weeks to figure out what was done about it, only to have the agriculture officer finally tell me that they gave the owner a verbal warning. :mad::mad::mad::mad: I wouldn’t have given those horses another month before they died, whether from dehydration, starvation, or disease. I was floored. To top it all off, they were oned by a local minister, “healing hands” or some bull poo like that. I guess that it goes to show you that all that glitters is not gold.

Aww, Thomas, put a sock in it.
Standards of care do vary.
I don’t know of anywhere in the US that requires you to provide your horses with a portajohn.

This boggles my mind. It is incomprehensible to me. Horses live outside, all over the world. They have for millions of years. Have we altered the species so much that it has become a pitiful, hothouse creature that must have shelter to survive and flourish? I think not.

On the other hand, keeping that magnificent creature in a stall as a way of life does approach cruelty, imo - and it’s a way of life that many horse owners consider perfectly OK and convenient.

We can argue back and forth as to which is really the cruel way to treat a horse, but I would prefer to let the horse decide - and I already know what most horses would choose. :wink:

I have a barn with nice stalls. My horses often choose to stay out in blizzards and rain anyway. Other times, especially at night during blizzards, I choose to lock them in their stalls, and they don’t seem to mind. Sometimes they even seem to appreciate it. But I know quite well that if I gave them a choice to be locked in a stall most of the day, every day, or be out in the snow and rain all of the time - they would choose the freedom.

Liz

Many horses are kept in enclosures that are less roomy than one acre per horse-- they are called stalls-- and many horses spend 75 to 90% of their lives in them-- does that mean they need to be seized because their owners are “neglectful”?

The “one acre per horse” rule is an arbitrary standard IMO adopted by many turning-suburban areas to limit horse ownership. These kinds or rules IMHO are often foisted upon rural residents by urbanites who move to the country-- and then try to make it more like the cities they just left. They are the same people who complain about garbage pick-up only once a week and who want street lights installed everywhere.

Actually, if you want to keep horses on pasture without having to suppliment with hay and/or grain-- it takes more like 3 acres improved pasture per horse while cattle can make do with only an acre and a half of improved pasture-- key word “improved.”

Of course, if you provide hay and or feed, you can maintain horses or any other livestock on much less than 3 acres per horse- improved or not. Can anyone say “feedlot?”

As far as fencing-- well sh*t happens. Two weeks ago, a large pecan limb fell and took out about 10 feet of fencing where I keep some horses. Two of the most adventurous horses figured out they could squeeze through the branches and get out of their pasture. Luckily, I check them at least twice a day so I arrived to close the main gate to the property pretty soon after the limb fell-- having seen what this huge limb had done to the pasture fence. Thank God I wasn’t away at the WEG – Eek!- Animal neglect.

The property owner insisted that he would handle the removal of the limb, repair of the fence, etc. Meanwhile I put up a temporary section of fence using five strands of electric fencing tied into the two strands already in use to keep the horses away from the five strand barbless wire permanent fencing. Is it pretty? – No. IS it functional- Yes.

It’s been two weeks, and owner has not fixed the permanent fencing yet. Suppose someone - a neighbor- thinks the electric wire is too flimsy and calls the nosey do-gooder animal “welfare” group-- who will then start pestering the sheriff about animal neglect on my part? Are these horses neglected and in a dangerous situation? I don’t think so. The owner of the property doesn’t think so, either. (I am hoping he will have this weekend off from the plant where he works so he can fix the permanent fencing.)

Or suppose someone had passed by and had seen the limb and the fence down before I had arrived to close the main gate (which was thousands of yards away and on the opposte side of the pasture from the gap created by the limb? Suppose they had “freaked” and had called the local nosey do-gooder animal “welfare” group about possible animal neglect-- After all the two horses could have chosen to leave the grass they were enjoying and their herdmates and have decided to take a walk down the weed-lined road, could they not? Of course, any really concerned person could have simply done as I did and closed the main gate.

Here’s another situation- real, too-- My Morgan cross mare is in a 30 by 40 paddock part of each 24 hours. She is there because she beats up my Percheron. They cannot be out together- they have to take turns using my half-acre dry lot. That’s right, I have a dry lot – eek!!! Animal abuse.

I happen to think using a dry lot and run-ins is better than keeping horses stalled 24/7 but the aforementioned animal rights group doesn’t share my point of view.

Anyway, in Betty’s paddock, I use a large round tub that holds 20 gallons as a water source for her. Just recently, she had discovered it was “fun” to paw and push at the tub to turn it over – even when it wis almost filled to the brim and tied to the fence. Of course, when she does that-- she is suddenly without fresh water–eek!!!- This happened recently while I wasn’t home-- I was a mile away getting my mail at the post office. Suppose one of my “helpful” neighbors had seen this, and had called the local nosey do-gooder animal “welfare” group before I returned home? Eek!! Animal neglect!!!

By now, some of you may be wondering about my apparently negative attitute toward the local animal “welfare” group. Well, it amazes me that they can ignore the many starving stray dogs and cats roaming the roads and streets in our parish. They never have room in their “network of foster homes” to take in any of the strays we call them about, but they have plenty of time to cruise around looking for “abused or neglected” horses, cattle or goats.

“Abused or neglected” are the terms they use for any animal not being housed in what they consider optimal conditions-- which are apparently limited to cute pre-fab Morton style barns, and pastures of at least 10 acres or more with white board fencing.

My point–so maybe PP has some of these kinds of people looking over her shoulder constantly-- and complaining constantly-- to animal control.

Maybe PP has been targeted by spiteful neighbors, and unlike lucky me who lives in a parish without animal control officers-- just a plain old sheriff’s office - she was unlucky enough to live where there are animal control officers. BTW, when budgets get tight ,ACOs are often in the first cut from the payroll-- could that have had anything to do with the “need to seize”-- their own need to “prove” that their jobs are necessary in the budget crunch?

Just wondering.

BTW, I solved Betty’s water problem-- sort of-- She now has two water buckets tied high up where she can’t paw them that she has not yet figured how to tip over- in addition to the large container. I personally think she is just pissed that she can’t get out to bully my other mare. She turns that bucket over out of spite-- just to make me have to keep going out to fill it up again-- :).

Bottom line- my best wishes to PP for a positive outcome. That means I hope she gets her horses-- her property-- back.

On a similar topic-- Really who hasn’t at some time thought of how to “go off the grid” after getting a particularly high utility bill? I don’t think that should be grounds for her losing her animals either. I saw the videos, and those horses did not look starved or even neglected to me.

Oh yes, I too have a pile of debris-- a burn pile at the rear of my property near my manure composting area. Does that mean my horses are neglected?? One of my sheds is built of recycled tin and utility poles (but the roofing tin is new) Does that mean my horses are neglected?

My son has such a pile as do two of nearest neighbors-- of course they don’t have horses. But they do have dogs and cats. Does having a debris pile on their property mean that their animals are neglected??? I have friends who live in mobile homes (sounds much nicer than trailer) and they have horses. Does this mean their horses are neglected? Oh, wait-- they have a debris pile too. Eek!!!

The attorney next door to where I keep some horses has a partially built barn- he’s building it himself-, a weedy pasture where his children’s fat-as-a-tick pony lives and oh no-- a debris pile. But hey, he’s an attorney so the animal welfare nuts – or nosey neighbors for that matter- probably won’t complain about him. He doesn’t have to pay an attorney to defend himself against --Eek!! – Charges of animal neglect. Get my drift?

Well, it boggles my mind the logic you are applying in comparing apples & pears.
Misty Blue couldn’t have summed it up any better, so I copy & paste her post once more, I hope she doesn’t mind.

[QUOTE=ShotenStar;5154882]
How about this scenario: the notice was posted on the FRONT door; the sitter always used the BACK door.

That’s how life works at my house … I can go for weeks at a time and never see or open my front door.

star[/QUOTE]

I am the same way. I use just my back door. My pet sitters are told to use the back door.

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;5161539]

Maybe they saw her with a suitcase with a luggage label tagged to say WEG. Maybe she told them. Maybe they knew the same way as I did! They could have read it on COTH!!!

Erm she was at the World Equestrian Games! We all know that![/QUOTE]

But who on the scene knew it? That is what I am saying. Either neighbors knew where she was [out of state] and therefore could have told AC who could have realized that they needed to look beyond her gate to notify her or they didn’t [saw her leave with a suitcase could simply be she was making a donation at Goodwill] and therefore leaving a note on gate might be enough.

What to you is sufficient effort to notify you that they are seizing your horses before they in fact load them up and cart them away?

But they weren’t, they were in a roundpen, We all know that!!. So it’s not an either they catch the horses or they try to locate her. Confine the horses [done]. Notify owner [not clear if or how thoroughly done].

But you just said they knew she was at WEG, we all knew that!!
I hardly ever see my neighbors either. That is not grounds to go over and take their property or assume that they are not there. People have jobs, sit at their computers, or staring at the boob tube… that they did not see anyone stop by, does not mean no one did.

What does there being no food/water in a roundpen the neighbors put the horses in have to do with anything? If there was no food or water in there, it does not then become obvious that the horses were without food/water… it might simply mean that the horses were not meant to get food water in the roundpen [which makes sense- to have them all in there trying to eat/drink can be asking for a herd fight.]

I don’t think that is what anyone is defending. The jury [not to mention charges even] is still out on even why the horses were seized.

My concern is the speed with which [12 hours or 24 makes little difference to me] they took her not starving, not even thin save one, horses that were safely contained at the time the report made the news.
It takes time to arrange volunteers and trailers to take the horses. I imagine it would take less time to find a way to contact her about the situation. That they could find the time to do the former and apparently did not do the latter… meanwhile someone online got wind of the seizure, and found her in 48 hours- maybe AC needs to hire that detective!?

Meanwhile months and months go by with other horses in way worse shape in the same state languish waiting for help [the Maine Ingraham case]

‘There is no way in hell I would expect a horse sitter to be able to repair fencing - at least not properly. Maybe, maybe temporarily - but would not expect it to hold. I’ve had full CC&C of my horses all my life, but have no idea how to properly fix electric fencing.’

LLDM, you need a better pet sitter. I expect my sitter to either handle it or call me to advise how to handle it, regardless of what ‘it’ is.

ETA lest I be misunderstood, I do agree with much of what LLDM says otherwise… there is protocol for these situation and perhaps AC followed it… but it does beg the question of whether all of us know what the protocol is in our area and how things would play out for each of us in our respective areas if we were on vacation and our horses escaped. That I would learn about AC taking my horses from an online person who happened to read about it on COTH is just… a bit much. I would hope somewhere in those 48 hours I would be contacted and apprised of the situation by law enforcement who is charging me. But as we see, that is not how it’s done. Lesson learned.

I suspect that’s probably the whole cause and effect in a nutshell.

I’ll repeat this again…in my area you will get your livestock (not just horses) seized if they are housed in unsafe conditions, no matter how well fed they are. You will also get your livestock seized if you aren’t complying with the law. End of story.

[QUOTE=vineyridge;5161476]

To me the ideal solution to this would be for the horses to remain under state control until the fences were repaired and shelter of an acceptable form provided. Once that’s done, horses would be returned, all charges dropped, and the State can get back to trying to deal with starving animals.[/QUOTE]

If the changes do need to be made, and PP’s horses cannot be returned until they are, the basis of the seizure was correct. Why, then, would the charges be dropped?

This scenario reduces ACO to a free board service, who would get none of the compensation that would follow from pressing charges.

This is one of the aspects of this whole situation that keeps bothering me. The fact that PP was having financial difficulties was no secret, as evidenced by her many posts, and her struggles to pay for the WEG trip and care of her animals while she was gone were well documented. I wonder how much in the way of repairs to her place could have been accomplished had she just stayed home? It doesn’t sound like she didn’t know that she was on AC’s radar.

If, in fact, her horses were removed because of unsafe conditions and the horses constantly getting out (and we all know the danger that imposes), I hope PP can make the needed repairs, clean things up, and get her horses back. I know in my area that AC will work with owners to accomplish that, particularly if the horses are well-kept otherwise. Perhaps the AC in PP’s neck of the woods have just had enough.

I don’t think we’ll ever find out, though.