You might look at Balance International saddles. Many of their models are made by Baines, and they’re beautiful quality. I’ve had one of their dressage saddles (a Nexus) for many years and previously had a GP saddle from them. All of the saddles are hoop trees. The Nexus tree tends to be a narrower twist (although it’s still wider than French saddles for sure). They also have jump saddles in all of their lines, including the Nexus.
OP, you need a close contact saddle, not a dressager, right?
Same with my Irish boy. Went from a French saddle with a medium tree to a wide Hastilow, and it was a difference I didn’t even know existed. All he did before was kick out when asked for canter depart, which I chalked up to bad manners/pissy attitude, and then when he crowhopped once on the landing side of a jump, I thought, oh ho! Never since!
This is not specific to OP’s horse. But I think, in general, most horses are fine with “good enough” saddle fit, and a few require “perfect” saddle fit. And you probably know which kind of horse you have.
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This is a question for the horse. Every one has different requirements, and every one has different ways of communicating it.
LOADS of people think their saddle is good enough until they ride in a better one, and suddenly the horse moves so freely, it’s lighter in front, it’s more forward, less rushy, straighter, or whatever. You won’t know your horse’s answer until you try the saddle.
A poorly fitting saddle frequently causes the horse to modify it’s movement is a way that does NOT cause back pain, but over the long term causes extra wear on limbs so it isn’t impossible that your team missed a problem. That said, it doesn’t sound like you have a problem. But the way to know for sure is to try the other saddle.
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Literally LOL’ed at this! I am of the masochist TB-loving type and have never owned a horse that my favorite saddle works for. I still have it, and every time a new horse enters my life I pray that this is the one that fits the glass shoe, Cinderella style :lol: Until then it sits in my office, making it look like I’m doing my Zoom calls from a tack room 
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First of all, let me offer you my sympathies on the process and the search… BT, DT, tee shirt is still stuffed in the back corner of my closet where I don’t have to see it every day.
I have very similar preferences in terms of close contact feel, narrow twist etc. After lots and lots of heartache trying to find something that both my prince-and-the-pea type and I liked, I finally figured out that the reason he liked “saddles that were wider than he measured,” was because he has a lot of muscle up around his withers and shoulder area. I got one of the new Antares models that have quite a different tree, and we found that Aha! situation. But man, it was a painful process getting there and the saddles were both more expensive and took a lot longer than would have been ideal.
When I bought my new horse about a month ago, I just couldn’t face going through all that again and since his back looked and felt great, I bought his saddle from the previous owner. (Horse is 14, is the shape he is, etc.) Turns out that he has been going in an older Devoucoux. Those who know me, know I love the feel of those saddles - when I did my test ride on my new horse, I was in heaven; the balance was great, it’s very close contact, etc. So anyway, I bought it along with the horse. It’s in decent condition but needs new billets - the holes are a bit stretched on one side, and that’s not really something I want to fool around with. Unfortunately, I have found that Devoucoux service hasn’t improved much since I last dealt with them years ago. Their repairs are running way behind (understandable given Covid) and they refuse to sell the billets so I could have my local repair person handle it. Sigh.
I wish you every success in your search!
I would love your opinion on this question as a professional in this field (and I have gotten a lot out of your website over the years- thank you. Depending on what we figure out locally you may be getting a call for a remote consultation.)
I’m reading a couple of things into this post:
The poorly-fitting saddle causes harm, either directly as a result of the fit, or indirectly in that it may cause the horse to compensate.
The saddle that truly fits the horse allows him to perform at his maximum physical potential (assuming the rider doesn’t ruin it.) It directly benefits the horse in presenting no impediment in and of itself to developing the musculature for a correct working posture.
Does that mean by implication that in your judgment the definition of “good enough” fit is non-invasive? It does not directly cause harm, it is unlikely to be associated with compensation elsewhere in the body. It provides neutral benefit in that while it does no harm, it may increase the difficulty in developing and maintaining a correct working posture; it makes it more difficult for the horse to live up to his physical potential.
This is essentially the question that I was asking the saddle fitter I am working with and I haven’t gotten a great answer- between masks, aisle fans, and appropriate physical distancing, we had difficulty hearing each other.
I remember that you and I both have similar preferences - but we’ve had absolutely the opposite experience with Devoucoux, so my sympathies. Sometimes I think I’m their only happy client on this board. (BTW to anyone considering one, the current MD rep is the closest thing I’ve seen to a saddle fitter for a brand rep. None of this “so we start with the rider…” bullshit, started by mapping out the horse’s body.) Tell me about this Antares- is this the Evolution? My guy also has A Lot going on laterally across his wither and shoulder. I used to own an Antares that worked until he grew out of it and that tree was like Goldilocks and the Three Bears for him- the medium didn’t give him enough room in the front and the wide was too wide across the mid-back. Our former area rep failed geometry class so I haven’t thought of their product in awhile, but maybe this tree is worth looking at.
I like your definitions, with one exception. For the good enough fit you said: “may increase the difficulty in developing and maintaining a correct working posture; it makes it more difficult for the horse to live up to his physical potential.” I would say that as soon as the rider starts asking for correct working posture, or for the horse to live up to his physical potential, that the saddle is no longer good enough because that is the point at which the horse will begin to compensate. So in the “good enough” fit the horse can’t live up to his potential. Or at least not without harm.
Situations in which I find myself advising on “good enough” saddles are generally for semi-retired horses, horses that are on the verge of out-growing their saddles so their riders can know what signs to watch for that it is no longer good enough, horses whose owners have ordered something better but want to keep riding in the old saddle until the new one arrives. I’m sure other people, especially fitters, have other definitions of what is “good enough” or where they draw that line. I’d love to hear some other perspectives.
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Thanks for chiming back in. I appreciate your professional perspective on this one.
My horse is semi-retired, and that’s part of what’s factoring into my reaction to the fitter’s advice. Again, I think she’s on the money in her interpretation of what would best serve his conformation, and it was her very negative reaction to a saddle that he’d used effectively for some time that surprised me. If in fact his saddle has been “good enough” all these years, and it’s held him back from the peak excellence of which he otherwise would have been capable, well, he would have been pretty marvelous, but that ship has probably sailed.
The fitter is bringing out two hoop trees to try, a Bliss something or other and a Black Country Quantum, and we’ll see what we see. I also have the Devoucoux rep coming out again, because I know that tree is “good enough” from his perspective as expressed in clear English and Irish over the past 10 years. And in the meantime he’s got a fat leg from a big reaction to a little cut, so until the edema goes down, we’re wandering around the farm bareback.
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As someone who came from the same position of loving the French saddle narrow twist and forward balance point- I think you’ll end up having the same complaints about the BC Quantum as the other UK saddles. The closest BC I found to the French feel (narrower twist, forward balance point) is the Solare. Not sure whether the tree will suit your horse, but may be worth asking the fitter about it. For sure I think you’ll like the Solare best for your comfort/balance of the BC saddles.
FWIW, if you try the Quantum and don’t like it, still try the Solare. The stirrup bar placement on the Quantum is more forward than the Solare so the Quantum may place your leg more forward than needed. I have BCs and I love them as do manny of my friends with hard to fit horses. Worth looking into!
This is a good tip, thank you. I had also thought from the description that the Solare may be more to my preference than the Quantum, but the first step is to see if my horse likes that tree over the DVX tree in the first place. Then we start seriously considering options other than riding bareback for as long as he continues to care to be ridden. :lol:
I’m also thinking about calling Antares about the Evolution in an AO1 or AO2- looking at his back tracings now vs. when he had the “fitter failed geometry class” AO1, that may be worth reconsidering. The thing is, he still likes that Devoucoux tree even when it empirically does not fit him- the Biarritz Lab in a bog standard panel was too tight in the shoulder but he showed good reach and throughness regardless, better than in my mom’s fitter-approved-to-be-good-enough saddle, and I’m pretty sure that an Evolution in an AO1 with my human specs is going to be impossible to find on the used market. (Oh, because did I mention that I take a long and extra-forward flap, and that’s the reason we’re doing this tango in the first place- when I rode in my mom’s, which puts my leg in a better position than my previous “good enough” Biarritz did, I had a lightbulb moment about riding in a saddle that actually fits my leg…)
Well, I learned a lot from other people’s sagas on this board, so I’m coming back to update this thread.
tl;dr my horse’s opinion is that he does not require a hoop tree, and I bought a saddle that he either deems “good and correct” or “good enough.”
The fitter came back with 3 different brands/configurations, each of which had a hoop tree. The Black Country Quantum was just the wrong geometry for him. The Bliss Loxley rocked. The Lovatt and Ricketts was good enough to get on and ride. As I test-rode the saddle, I felt that my horse was adjusting his way of going to try to figure it out, but he never reached a point where he really felt like he was connecting the energy of his hocks to his topline. It also rolled from side to side and slipped back (the fitter and I disagreed on this point.) I hopped off and flatted him bareback for a couple of minutes to make sure that that lack of throughness wasn’t just what he was bringing to the table today, and had a better horse bareback than I did with tack on. I did think pretty hard about whether he needed to learn how he could go in this saddle, but I didn’t see a reason to believe that the rolling was a panel problem. At this stage, I’d also figured out that while this fitter is well-educated and I respect what she knows, she was not going to be a match for what I needed; we weren’t able to really have a dialogue about what parts of what I was seeing and feeling in each saddle were panel configurations that could be changed, and what was the result of the tree geometry. So I was coming back to what I know about my horse, what I know about saddle fitting, and my horse’s fortunately expansive vocabulary about what he likes and doesn’t like. I don’t know that I gave it a fair trial to be able to say conclusively, “he doesn’t care for a hoop tree.” But the 3 that we tried were not the right thing.
I had another Devoucoux come on trial the following week. This is the same tree as the one he’s gone in, but a different panel configuration. This saddle passed the test. He can show a working trot up and down hills and descend a steep hill in a straight line. When he walks back up the hill the saddle hasn’t moved backwards. My mom kindly took video, which I stared at and asked my sister to also review. Everyone’s opinion was the same: he came through in his body, he was free in both his shoulders, and he cracked his back over his jump, which is hilarious because it was a crossrail. I had my mom’s trainers double check my sanity on this saddle (because at this point it’s needed) and all of us agreed that while it was not currently perfect in the panel, it was the best each one of us had seen on him. And on that basis I bought it.
He’s actively changing in his back and topline right now as he’s regaining some fitness from less riding during my state’s lockdown and his usual summer break, and typically changes again with the adjustments to his work during winter. I will see how his back settles in a couple of months and then send the saddle to be re-paneled if his mid-back doesn’t come back up. In the meantime, I have a shim pad and a happy horse. So I think I’m going to call this one a day.
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OP - have you looked into Prestige or Harry Dabbs?
My horse was in a wide KN Akkord as several saddle fitters have insisted she needs a hoop tree. I absolutely hated the saddle for a variety of reasons but worked with it because it fit her - however she changed shape over the past year and the KN was no longer balanced on her at all (proabably a large part of why I hated it - although the seat depth and twist were not my cup of tea, either).
My mare has a large, long laid back shoulder, is wide with a moderate wither and is short backed and curvy. The best options for us was a Paris Classic in a 35 cm with the X panels. I also tried a Harry Dabbs Italiano which was very flat and close contact, but a smidge too small for us both, as well as a wide tree Canterbury Bordeau which fit her fine but I wasn’t keen on.
Both horse and I ultimately loved the Prestige, but I didn’t mind the Harry Dabbs at all - it was a smidge too narrow for her and needed the tree widened, so I did feel a bit tipped back but overall had I not liked the Prestige more (which fit perfectly without any adjustment), I would have been content with the Dabbs with the tree widened a smidge and a size up in th seat. The Paris Classic was the only Prestige model the fitter thought was suitable due to combo of tree shape and panel shape. Perhaps worth a look for you?
Prestige makes a great saddle! When I was looking for him the first time around (which was a yearlong saga…) I did try several of their models, most successfully the Meredith. I don’t remember why they weren’t his jam- looking back, I suspect I needed a wider tree than I could get my hands on to try. I didn’t look again this time.
After doing my homework after starting this thread, I did decide that if he did need a different tree shape, I was calling someone who works with Harry Dabbs. Of any maker on the planet, their saddles seemed most likely to be able to combine “fits horse whose conformation is akin to a British native pony who lifts weights” with “rides like French.” Happily for my kicking and screaming about custom saddles 
it didn’t end up being necessary.
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Hi there I am looking at a Paris x for mg horse. He has a long wither and large laid back shoulder. I’ve been told the “vesuvio” is the saddle for him. Is there a decent amount of wither clearance? He isn’t shark fin but pretty long in the wither down into his back. Everything that “fits” him puts my center to far behind the motion … thanks for you input!
Kat
The Amerigo Vesuvio? From the pic alone it was made for a horse like yours. It handles withers + hollows + back curvature well. I tried one for my guy and liked it a lot- it was for my mom and it didn’t fit me, but it rode like a Delgrange. But they can be hard to find.
I have my dad’s barely used Crump I need to find a home for 
