Saddle search nightmare for a morgan

[pattnic]

I don’t find that Stuebbens tend to fit Morgans well. They also tend to have longer tree points, if I remember correctly.

My Morgans are basically on the border of needing a hoop tree, but I typically find the fit is just not quite right. That said, it might still be worth trying a hoop tree on your horse, even if “on paper” it seems like it’s not the best option. As soloudinhere points out, sometimes what makes our horses happiest is not what, in theory, should “be best.”

Ultimately, my horses decided they liked an XW County Conquest the best. FancyThat’s lovely Morgan mare likes her County Innovation (I think it’s an XW). County saddles have shorter tree points. The Innovation is a bit wider than the like-sized Conquest or Stabilizer, but is also a bit more curvy front-to-back. Honestly, it’s worth having your County rep out.

Prestige could possibly be another option; it was suggested my mare, who is a bit narrower than my gelding, would be a 36cm, which is the widest they come before having to special-order a 37cm. (VTO saddlery told me they could not open a non-37cm tree up enough to make it a 37cm.) I never did try a Prestige, but they are more curvy front-to-back than many of the saddles you’ve tried.

[jaybird660]

[QUOTE=jaybird660;8939626]
In the Black County, did you try the standard tree or hoop tree?[/QUOTE]

The majority of the Morgan horses we fit are hoop trees although some need panel support. Frequently, when horses are on the cusp, they prefer a hoop tree. Of course, I’m just conjecturing.

[no.stirrups]

No they did not had the freedom tree. I was told by his tracings he is not a def. Hoop canidate.if you like I attached his tracings in the link above.

IMHO, definitely a hoop candidate.

My fitter and 2 others commented on that he needs a slight curved tree that is wider throughout the pommel without pressure on the trapezius.

“Wider through the pommel” is a hoop tree! Reducing pressure on the trapezius is one of the benefits.

Thank you. How can I tell it has the ib tree?

The IB is one of Harry Dabbs newest trees, so you are very unlikely to find it on the used market. When ordering a saddle from Harry Dabbs you start with the tree, and then essentially build it with all the components you like such as seat depth, twist width, flap design, etc.

[snowrider]

A Duett? I have one and it has a lot of space under the bars and the front is very wide. I actually hate that saddle but the qh loves it.

Interesting you said the butterfly tree pinched in front. I’ve been eyeing one of those.

[jaybird660]

I looked at your info and I agree that your horse is on the cusp. The tracings don’t seem to match the photos of the back which throws me off. Typically, we ask for the #2 line to be over the low point of the back and in your photos, that area looks rounder than the tracing. #1 in our info is essentially where the tree points would be.
So, based on the photos, your horse is typical of many hoop tree candidates that we fit. They are on the cusp but do well with a tree that is very open but has panel and/or front gusset support to allow for the needed shoulder and trapezius freedom. In some of your photos, he looks like he has more of a dip and in some, he appears to have less. The Quantum X and Ricochet X would have the same tree, unlike the standard Quantum and Ricochet. However, the Ricochet X would have the K panel. You might want to try the Quantum X with a front or half/wither gusset or the Ricochet X or even a Wexford X which would give you the same idea if not the exact fit for you. Alternately, you could try a standard jump saddle that is wide but has front gussets to see if the additional lift takes the pressure off that area.

[pattnic]

[QUOTE=snowrider;8941272]
A Duett? I have one and it has a lot of space under the bars and the front is very wide. I actually hate that saddle but the qh loves it.[/QUOTE]

OP would likely feel “far away from the horse” in a Duett, which is something OP didn’t like in another saddle that was tried.

[VTMorgan06]

[QUOTE=pattnic;8939936]
Ultimately, my horses decided they liked an XW County Conquest the best. FancyThat’s lovely Morgan mare likes her County Innovation (I think it’s an XW). County saddles have shorter tree points. The Innovation is a bit wider than the like-sized Conquest or Stabilizer, but is also a bit more curvy front-to-back. Honestly, it’s worth having your County rep out.[/QUOTE]

My morgan is also happily riding in a County Innovation. A friend of mine has ridden 2 morgans in her County Stabilizer. I agree it’s worth a call to the nearest County rep.

[Spud_amp_Saf]

I also thought I should mention Lovatt & Ricketts (or known in the USA as Arabian Saddle Company) saddles.

They have a more hoop tree type design with an open pommel and allow for good shoulder movement. I have owned 2 of these saddles, and they are lovely quality and very comfortable. I’m not sure if the tree would be curvy enough, but there are probably some panel options that could make the saddle work. These are also found for a great price used if you scour ebay or consignment sections of tack stores.

[Against_All_Odds1]

[QUOTE=famjack02;8938057]
Hi guys,

I’m in saddle search hell since 3 month with no end in sight.

My Morgan is a difficult fit with a very sensitive back. He sustain an injury to his longisimus dorsi during his stint in saddle seat with his previous owner. So fit is a make it or break it deal for us.

The biggest issue is that his back changes dramatically when I ride. He is very downhill and curved but when I ride him he lifts his back a lot which changes his whole shape. It’s driving my fitter and me crazy.

Things we tried:
Black country quantum: to tight under stirrup bars
Black country ricochet: bridged not wide enough panels
Schleese jes elite cc: it worked overall ok however it put me into a chair seat and I wasn’t willing to pay 3x a year $400 in saddle fitting
Collegiate diploma: nothing works well,shoulder sore
Bates: tree length shape works but not pommel shape
Baines reflex: overall fit ok but bridges slightly and panels dig into his back
America vega jump: too much curve
Thornhill berlin: panels shape works,length works but I feel far away from my horse.
Kent and masters gp compact or jump: feel like I’m sinking right unto his shoulders. He goes ok till shoulders get sore.
Butterfly saddle: overall ok but pinched shoulders

My fitter and 2 others commented on that he needs a slight curved tree that is wider throughout the pommel without pressure on the trapezius. Short but wide panels that are slightly of full up swept. I don’t mind a medium to wide twist, I actually prefer them

Thank you for any info or advice !!!

I attached my saddle fitting album ( it came this far lol)

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B-7QQKkVfdNVd3cteFBGMTB2S28[/QUOTE]

I have nothing to add other than that might be the cutest morgan I’ve ever seen :love-struck:

[SonnysMom]

Patrick Saddlery is fairly pricey but I bet he could make something for you. I had a really difficult to fit horse. As in Stubben returned my deposit since once their Master Saddler saw the tracings and pictures they did not think they could make one we would be happy with.
I was lucky that Patrick comes to my area twice a year for a trade show. However I have an independent saddle fitter that he has made a few saddles for her clients that he has not seen in person.
I have had 2 made my him. I was desperate enough when I got the first one that I never even got to ride a demo before I placed my order. I loved that saddle and so did my horse. I am only selling it because I lost a lot of weight and shrunk out of it.
I am not posting this as a sales ad since the size is wrong what you are looking for. I am posting it so you can see the video. Make sure you get a good look at the panels. You can see how very unique they are. http://www.pelham-saddlery.com/saddles/patrick20380used.html
Finnegan has a high wither, hollows, a decent shoulder and a dip. With a better fitting saddle he has less of a dip and a much better topline.

My newer saddle which I got in April is a monoflap also with the fully custom panels.
His saddles are truly custom and he takes a huge amount of pride in producing a high quality saddle. He also really liked the challenge of fitting my horse and he certainly rose to the challenge.

[famjack02]

I have not trialed any County. Our Chiro commented on that the current county rep leaves a sad Trail of sore horses behind. I figured i might should stay away for now.
I put a Prestige optimax on him and it was too much of a curve. I am very unfamiliar with both brands and dont know how many different tress there are for these 2.

[famjack02]

[QUOTE=pattnic;8939936]
I don’t find that Stuebbens tend to fit Morgans well. They also tend to have longer tree points, if I remember correctly.

My Morgans are basically on the border of needing a hoop tree, but I typically find the fit is just not quite right. That said, it might still be worth trying a hoop tree on your horse, even if “on paper” it seems like it’s not the best option. As soloudinhere points out, sometimes what makes our horses happiest is not what, in theory, should “be best.”

Ultimately, my horses decided they liked an XW County Conquest the best. FancyThat’s lovely Morgan mare likes her County Innovation (I think it’s an XW). County saddles have shorter tree points. The Innovation is a bit wider than the like-sized Conquest or Stabilizer, but is also a bit more curvy front-to-back. Honestly, it’s worth having your County rep out.

Prestige could possibly be another option; it was suggested my mare, who is a bit narrower than my gelding, would be a 36cm, which is the widest they come before having to special-order a 37cm. (VTO saddlery told me they could not open a non-37cm tree up enough to make it a 37cm.) I never did try a Prestige, but they are more curvy front-to-back than many of the saddles you’ve tried.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=no.stirrups;8940678]IMHO, definitely a hoop candidate.

“Wider through the pommel” is a hoop tree! Reducing pressure on the trapezius is one of the benefits.

The IB is one of Harry Dabbs newest trees, so you are very unlikely to find it on the used market. When ordering a saddle from Harry Dabbs you start with the tree, and then essentially build it with all the components you like such as seat depth, twist width, flap design, etc.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the response.
I think what my fitter meant to say was that a hoop tree might be too much because he is on the cusp and recommended to look into a Saddle with a more “open” tree not not as much as a hoop.
The main issues that most saddles are always tight for him under the stirrup bars.

Her comment: its like fitting 3 very different horses with 1 saddle

[famjack02]

Interesting you said the butterfly tree pinched in front. I’ve been eyeing one of those.[/QUOTE]

I loved their balance, but in 2 models it pinched badly. I am not sure how the model changed over the years. the one i trialed was 2.5 years old

[famjack02]

[QUOTE=VTMorgan06;8942133]
My morgan is also happily riding in a County Innovation. A friend of mine has ridden 2 morgans in her County Stabilizer. I agree it’s worth a call to the nearest County rep.[/QUOTE]

Are the short enough for your morgans?

[famjack02]

[QUOTE=jaybird660;8941315]
I looked at your info and I agree that your horse is on the cusp. The tracings don’t seem to match the photos of the back which throws me off. Typically, we ask for the #2 line to be over the low point of the back and in your photos, that area looks rounder than the tracing. #1 in our info is essentially where the tree points would be.
So, based on the photos, your horse is typical of many hoop tree candidates that we fit. They are on the cusp but do well with a tree that is very open but has panel and/or front gusset support to allow for the needed shoulder and trapezius freedom. In some of your photos, he looks like he has more of a dip and in some, he appears to have less. The Quantum X and Ricochet X would have the same tree, unlike the standard Quantum and Ricochet. However, the Ricochet X would have the K panel. You might want to try the Quantum X with a front or half/wither gusset or the Ricochet X or even a Wexford X which would give you the same idea if not the exact fit for you. Alternately, you could try a standard jump saddle that is wide but has front gussets to see if the additional lift takes the pressure off that area.[/QUOTE]

Hi Jay,
I uploaded some new tracings for you. My saddle fitter commented on that its like fitting 2 different horses. I am unable to do any custom $ wise.
He does have a little dip but nothing of concern i was told.
thank you for the recommendations! As much I want a BC I cant afford new with their price hike. I would need used. Do you know of some other brands that tree/panel wise would be an option

[famjack02]

[QUOTE=Spud&Saf;8945682]
I also thought I should mention Lovatt & Ricketts (or known in the USA as Arabian Saddle Company) saddles.

They have a more hoop tree type design with an open pommel and allow for good shoulder movement. I have owned 2 of these saddles, and they are lovely quality and very comfortable. I’m not sure if the tree would be curvy enough, but there are probably some panel options that could make the saddle work. These are also found for a great price used if you scour ebay or consignment sections of tack stores.[/QUOTE]

thanks! That’s great to hear. I contacted them since they have some demo saddles on sale.

[jaybird660]

I’ll have to check it when back in the shop so that I can print it which won’t be until Friday.

[no.stirrups]

Some people are talking about hoop trees here as if there is only one kind of hoop tree in the world. As with a standard tree, they come in many different shapes and degrees of openness in the head as well as through the trapezius. For example, the Jeffries Liberty is more open than the Sport, but not as much as the XP; all are best suited for a flatter back. The Frank Baines Pirouette is more open than the Omni or Elegance, but not as much as the Capriole Extra. The Harry Dabbs Hunter is extremely open, but if your horse is less extreme they have the IB and Extra, still more open than the Original, XF, or Avant, and which also vary in their degree of curve front-to-back.

I consider the Liberty, XP, Pirouette, capriole Extra, Hunter, IB, and Extra all to be hoop trees, but all are suited to quite different horses!

[pattnic]

[QUOTE=famjack02;8945833]
Are the short enough for your morgans?[/QUOTE]

You didn’t ask me, but I’ll answer anyway - for my Morgans, yes.

As I mentioned, my Morgans are also on the cusp and are happier in a non-hoop tree.

It sounds like the following are true:

1. You have a limited budget, since a custom BC is not on the table
2. You have a saddle fitter
3. You have been warned off your local County rep

Taking these things together, if you do consider County, look for something used and work with your current saddle fitter. You come in at a lower price point, you keep working with someone you obviously trust, and you avoid someone about whom you have concerns. Another option (as a starting point) might be to have the County rep come out at the same time as your current fitter. Then you have the opportunity to try several things, but also have the advice of someone you trust.

[jaybird660]

I didn’t notice that anyone suggested that there was only one hoop tree. I do feel there are degrees of “hoopiness”. Black Country isn’t the only maker of those. I do, however, feel that they are more open in the pommel arch than many others. Duett, some Thornhill, Lovatt & Ricketts, some Ideal and some Baines also have that same degree of openness. The Pirouette, in my opinion, is less laterally open and not nearly as much as those I’ve listed but it is a very versatile saddle and works well with horses on the cusp or some Baroque types that aren’t flat mid back, laterally. The Baines Balance saddles and the Capriole Xtra that is also on the Balance tree is quite open. The Omni Low Head is more open than some of their saddles as well but not as generous as the truly open ones.