Saddle suggestions for the big shoulder, average wither to short/flat back pony

[sirensong4]

I am so sorry if this exact question has been asked, but I’m not great at searching, so here we go!

My 14 hand Heinz 57 pony has radically changed shape since she has gone into regular work. She has gone from looking like a rotund Arab cross to looking more like an A-shaped small warmblood. She is coming 4, so her shoulders are still growing and developing, and she may or may not pop a wither. My chiropractor is convinced she has some gaited blood in her, possibly Paso Fino, and I am starting to see the Paso A-shape. She has some withers right now, but absolutely no pockets or dips to her back. She is slightly downhill, or at least feels that way, but that will likely change as her shoulders mature. Her shoulder has a lot of backwards movement. Her back is pretty flat–not mule-flat, but close. She has a little curve, not much though.

I am currently riding in a Thornhill Vienna II wide tree with a front riser pad. Even with a front riser, the saddle sits low in the front. It is a decent fit, but not great anymore. I tried the same saddle in a medium tree, sans front riser, and I feel like it interferes with the backward movement of her scapula in a way that the Wide does not.

My leg tends to creep forward in this saddle right now also, which is why i am on the hunt. Pony works happily in it, but she is a good egg and may have no idea that she does have the option to complain.

I was poking around on le internet to see what other options are out there and i am currently working off of the theory that the large gusseted panels on the Vienna are what is tipping the saddle forward. The tree seems to fit pony well otherwise, and the same saddle in an XW does not tip forward/down on my draft cross (yes, I have 3 versions of the same saddle. I really like it :D).

So anyways, back to pony. I am looking for saddle suggestions that are worth investigating. I figure most of the french and italian saddles are out, because pony isn’t curvy. Cost is absolutely not an issue. Pony’s comfort comes first:

Upswept/short panels
Flat panel
Higher pommel
No front gussets
Prefer leather but not married to it
Maybe an external block? Never ridden in one, and I’m not sure if they are a blessing or a curse
No preference on wool vs modern foam, although wool may make changes easier as she grows
No preference on aesthetics although i love the look of buffalo and I love the look of Lauriches swooooooon
I normally ride a 17.5" seat. I can probably do a 17" but i do have a bubble butt so a high cantle or a cutback head might take that option away.

I am in an english saddle wasteland so will be doing most of my trials by mail.

I am willing to look at PDS saddles, especially the Integro which takes Pessoa gullets instead of the PDS gullets, because i own a rainbow of those gullets and I think adjustable gullets might be a good call on a youngster like this. I have an Ovation CC saddle for her, because it also takes Pessoa gullets and because I like the panel shape of the Pessoa/Ovation, so that’s where my thoughts are currently. But I am sure there are more options out there in the brands I know nothing about–Lauriche, Baines, BC, County, Custom, Amerigo, Jag, Smith-Worthington, Bliss, L&R, etc.–so that’s why I am seeking COTH wisdom.

I’ve also tried a Thornhill Danube, a Barnsby AVG, a Prestige (not sure which), a Don Rodrigo, and a Niedersuss Symphonie, all of which were varying degrees of “too curvy.”

Thanks for reading my novel!

Here are some reference photos:
Side view confo shot
weird/dim riding shot
(please excuse the poor form; we are just beginning real canter work. In retrospect, black pad, saddle, and breeches were a bad call, but you can see how the saddle “tips” in this photo, and how it is hindering proper engagement behind.)

[jaybird660]

First of all, I’d rather see these shots. Yours are not super helpful for me. one from the side of the entire horse, square, head up. One from the back, behind the tail on a mounting block looking down on the back, head straight.

The dry spots indicate pressure but without seeing the lateral back shape as from behind the tail, it’s hard to know whether your horse might be narrower in front but needing panel support or angular all the way. My gut feeling is that your horse is rounder and therefore, needs a hoop or hoop tree hybrid type with a deeper front panel in front. Full front gussets are not just for horses with hollows. They can give support to the front of the saddle so that the shoulders can be accommodated and keep the front of the saddle from crashing on the withers. This is useful for a horse that is downhill or more laterally flat in the mid back but narrower in front.

[sirensong4]

She doesn’t have any dry spots.

I will get some additional shots today. Thanks for the advice! The front gussetted saddles i have tried on her before do not work at all–the gusset ends up being literally the only point of contact. But I am sure the gussets are not all created equal.

I believe the Vienna II is constructed on a hoop tree, so maybe those trees are not all created equal either.

[sirensong4]

Back view
[URL=“http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa170/sirensong4/20160325_133250.jpg”]
Side view

[jaybird660]

[QUOTE=sirensong4;8591200]
She doesn’t have any dry spots.

I will get some additional shots today. Thanks for the advice! The front gussetted saddles i have tried on her before do not work at all–the gusset ends up being literally the only point of contact. But I am sure the gussets are not all created equal.

I believe the Vienna II is constructed on a hoop tree, so maybe those trees are not all created equal either. :)[/QUOTE]

There were small dry spots in one photo right where the stirrup bars are.

[jaybird660]

I do think your horse is more hoop type than not. I would think a longitudinally and laterally flatter type panel. Wither gussets wouldn’t be an option but a full front gusset can work better if needed. Also, some options for a rider that needs a larger seat is a more open seat or a saddle that can be made with a seat size and shorter panel, or an upswept panel. Duett, Black Country, Balance, Thorowgood, Albion LH, Lovatt & Ricketts are just some of the options.

[khall]

I have a Black Country Vinici X (which is the hoop tree and love it), external knee block that does not interfere with my leg, deep enough seat without being constrictive.

[Dune]

Listen to Jay and try working with her. If she’s anywhere close, get her out to your place. I’ve gathered a LOT of good information from her over the years and WISH she was closer to me!

[no.stirrups]

Sirensong4, there are many saddles that meet your criteria. A great place to start is to just sit in as many saddles as you can to begin to narrow down your choices by determining what you like. A saddle maker you might wish to add to your list is Harry Dabbs. Most of their models have upswept panels and high pommels, and their Future panel is cut back for greater shoulder freedom.

[soloudinhere]

Looking at the photos, and my experience on my own horse who is similarly shaped - I think you’d have luck with the thorowgood S series. Bonus, cheap.

[JackSprats_Mom]

Your pony sounds exactly like my horse and the hermes saddles work well on them (but pricey I know, I lucked out on a used one)

[sirensong4]

Wait–Jay is female??? My mind is officially blown! Thanks everyone for the input and suggestions! I will sit in as many dressage saddles as I can, but I live in English saddle wasteland. My local saddle shop only has 8 dressage saddles, most of which are on the “tried it” list. The Dabbs suggestion is a good idea though; that’s exactly the panel configuration I suspect I need. There is a Dabbs Cobra at the shop. I never tried it bc it has a tiny 16.5" seat, but it would be worth putting on her just to see how the panels and tree shape work. I will look into Hermes and the Vinci X too, and the Thorowgood.

Thanks again for all the suggestions! Really I’m just delighted to have a somewhat normal shape of horse to try and fit, after years of struggles with fitting Roxie.

[snowrider]

I disagree that horse has no withers! I think she has good withers but also good muscles. Horses aren’t supposed to have dips on the side of the wither- that’s muscle atrophy from a close fitting saddle usually.

I think you should look into the Thoroughgood and used Albions. We have a QH who looks really similar and the older Albion low heads and one of the Courbettes really fit him very well.

Unfortunately I think you should be prepared to buy another saddle when she’s done growing if you need to so keep some money back!

[luvmyhackney]

She is built very similar to my pony and a Thorowgood fit him better than anything else I’ve tried on a budget, plus it has been easily adjustable as he has gained muscle and changed. The Hermes fit him as well but I had sticker shock.

[sirensong4]

Awesome. All great suggestions!

I have had Thorowgoods in the past. I loved the High Wither on my last TB. The twist on the Broadback was far far too wide for my comfort. Guess it might be time to meet in the middle.

And Jay, those “dry spot” shots in my Photobucket album are on my roan draft horse. She got those from a treeless saddle with incorrect padding.

[Arabiandressage]

I am going to give a recommendation as I don’t quite think this horse is a true hoop tree candidate but I haven’t seen tracings either. That said have you looked at the HDR Ventura saddle? We carry it and it has a wider head and the panels on it are pretty flat. I would need to see tracings to see how quickly this horse flattens out laterally but you may want to look at that one too.

[artisticgold]

I have a Kent and Masters Cob dressage for my 14.1h Lipizzan mare. They have adjustable gullet plates, and the flocking is wool, so can be fitted to the horse. It has a nice narrow twist, very comfortable, moveable velcro blocks under the flap, and point billet option. The panels are very short, so won’t be too long on a short backed horse/pony.

[sirensong4]

Great! Thanks, everyone!
Arabiandressage, i will PM you.

[ivy62]

Have you looked at a Custom Saddlery saddle? I have an older model and my horse loves it. He has a wide wither and a fairly flat back and a nice shoulder…
They are priced well also…

[sirensong4]

I have a friend with one of those (Custom Saddlery) who loves hers. Hers is much more curvy though–it fits her typical high-withered TB. What year is yours?