Saddles with long tree points and rides like a French saddle

[BroncoMo]

I’m pretty certain I’ve had some thread conversations with a bunch of yall regarding some saddle fit issues and the topic of long tree points was brought up. I’ve lost track of what threads those conversations took place in so I’m starting this to gather a comprehensive list. Unfortunately the horse I was trying to solve ended up having debilitating neck issues and is being put to sleep next week; he was a lease from a good friend of mine. However, my personal horse has a topline that I think I need some help with.

He has a relatively high wither and atrophied trapezius. He’s never had much muscle in that area but I’m determined that I can fix it with conditioning and proper saddle fit. He can/has/will build over the rest of his topline, except his traps.

I’ve ridden in a handful of different CWDs and Volataires, currently a CWD with RT RG to accommodate his scapula. But I think his scapula isn’t held as close to his body because of the atrophy.

While his fit is my top priority, I must also consider how the saddle fits me. I don’t have any experience with non-French brands, so I’m ignorant as to how they are balanced. I ride in a SE01 2L and love the balance. My tendency is to shove my leg forward. So I would prefer something that has a stirrup bar far enough back to not encourage that, and a balance that keeps me forward in the seat. Mademoiselles do not agree with me and sit me on my pockets, and I get bogged down in them.

Full disclosure: I have an independent fitter that I will be working with, but I like to do my own research before hand. Also would like to know what price point to prepare for. I’m in the “moderately used high end brand” sort of budget. So I would strongly prefer a brand that has saddles to be found in the used market, or at least not in the “I need to start shaking it on the corner” type of price point.

Flood me with your ideas for the beast who needs to not skip “back day” at the gym, and me who resorts to defensive riding due to spending much time starting the greenies.

[Demerara_Stables]

You are better off building the top line first with ground work (longeing, long-lining, pole work) then trying to find a saddle right away. The problem is he will change so much after he builds top line that you will end up needing a different saddle than what you need now.

Without seeing the horse (but having one like that that just came to me), I would say do ground work and maybe trail riding at the walk, if you can get something that fits well enough with a ton of padding, for a month or two and then see where he is. If he has developed significant top line then you can start doing a search.

To answer your question, I’m not super familiar with how French saddles ride as personally. I dislike them but for horses with that shape I think a Stubben might be a good fit. I also really like how the Horobin saddles fit the horses, although they aren’t my cup of tea for myself (which means you may love them!).

[CanteringCarrot]

Perhaps look at the Italian brands such as Amerigo, Equipe, Prestige, and Erreplus. You may cross over from French saddles to those brands easier than some others.

[Amberley]

Amerigo will make a lot of their saddles with long points. Beval has some models too, used at this point but they are out there.

[fivestrideline]

Italian, some Counties, and used Stubbens would be good options! I LOVE my CWD for me but it doesn’t fit anything right now

[nighthorse6]

I ordered a custom saddle from Ideal Saddlery. It’s a British brand. I haven’t received it, so I can’t speak too much yet, but I did ride in a test saddle and it felt as much like a French close contact saddle as you can get with a wool flocked saddle.
I’m getting the French Debut saddle with the addition of an adjustable gullet.

[BroncoMo]

I could certainly post pictures and back drawings.

I do realize conditioning comes from unridden work. Which is so hard to come by with an active show horse. But I do understand the need. I only ride him in English tack twice a week in jumping lessons. The remainder of the week is a combination of longing, longing in a rig, ground pole work in hand and longing, brisk walks in western tack through rolling hills, and occasional trot sets in the hills in western tack. I was seeing some good development over his topline and around his withers before an abscess grounded him for a bit. But I still think saddle fit can be improved. I’m sort of guessing it’s the reason for the atrophy.

[Demerara_Stables]

@BroncoMo

I do realize conditioning comes from unridden work. Which is so hard to come by with an active show horse.

If the horse doesn’t have a healthy topline or a saddle that fits, he shouldn’t be jumping, let alone showing. Depending on the extent of muscle atrophy, he may not even be suitable for any under saddle work. I’m not saying you need to post photos for all of the internet to see, as I understand you’re opening yourself up for a lot of unwanted criticism, so it’s up to you (and your trainer) to decide how much topline he’s lacking and how much work he can do. And remember, just because he’s going around “happily,” doesn’t mean he’s not in pain.

[greysfordays]

I agree the Italian brands could be a good fit. My horse also has a tall wither and tall croup which makes fitting him tricky. I went with Renaissance (which is prestige), wool flocked and the tree is a bit adjustable. I was worried to go with this brand bc the tree points are shorter than Stubbens for example.

My horse moved barns and is now constantly walking up hills to get to the paddock and ring, plus a track with some small hills and then small trails. His topline is radically different.

I tried really hard with the Stubbens, I think I tried six of them, three for long-term demos. I just couldn’t ride in them, my trainer fell off riding in it when he swerved after a jump. I was so desperate to have something that fit him, that i was willing to try to make it work. My vet reminded me that if you’re fighting for your own balance, that doesn’t feel good on their back either. Plus she ended up liking the fit of the Renaissance better.

I’m not sure I agree there can be no ridden work while you’re building a topline. I think a lot of riding in a saddle that doesn’t fit probably doesn’t help you. But it sounds you’re doing an excellent job varying the conditioning work and doing right by your horse. He is certainly leading a better life than most horses I know.

[SamBDA]

I just had an independent saddle fitter out yesterday and talked about this exact topic, I was told that all the trees used in the French and Italian saddles are made by two manufactures and there is really no significant difference between the well known French and Italian brands in terms of the tree points.

Stubben and Fairfax were both recommended.
Good luck!! Curious to know what you end up with

[Against_All_Odds2]

I’m going to disagree with your fitter. I posted in another thread with photos of 2 Italian brands , both with carbon trees. Their trees are significantly different :

Please, saddle gurus: wide wither & spine ideas

I have an Amerigo Largo and it is lovely. I’d go up to at least a 3+ though. I have an Erreplus Contact SL coming as my Amerigo tree is twisted and I need something in the meantime. From the photos it looks even more generous than the Amerigo Largo DJ Largo: [dj largo] Erreplus: [erreplus]

[SamBDA]

Thanks for sharing!
I should go back to edit and say “the majority of popular French and Italian” brands

Just based on the photos the Amerigo looks very similar to everything else I’ve seen and was indeed in the list from the tree supplier she showed.

But the Erreplus looks like it has longer points and a much more generous cut.

Erreplus is a new to me brand, definitely curious to look into it more

[Against_All_Odds2]

I bought that monoflap from that thread and just took possession of a dressage saddle from them too. Absolutely swoon worthy to ride in

[IPEsq]

That is not correct. I mean, most carbon fiber bicycles are made in the same factory. Sounds like every racing bike should be the same, right? No. There are proprietary designs and weave patterns and layups of the fibers for different brands and models.

For saddle trees, there are indeed a range of different tree shapes and head irons and tree points used, even among some brands that are made in the same factory.

Sure there are brands that will build different rider configurations and panels on the same tree for some models. And some that use short tree points for all models with paneling to provide horse support and fit. But neither of those things is true across the board for all or the majority of French and Italian saddles. Some brands are very open about their different tree designs, others are more vague. But I wish people would stop perpetuating that nonsense just because they prefer English made saddles. Which you know are also primarily made in the same place.

[Railbird]

I always find it kind of funny that the “independent” saddle fitters all have a serious issue with the types of saddles that they just so happen to have panels they can’t work on, and instead will recommend saddles which they need to come out and charge you to maintain twice a year, while saying you can’t trust a saddle brand sales rep because they’re financially incentivized. I suspect the average saddle rep makes less on a sale than a fitter makes on two flocking appointments.

OP, is your horse happy and comfortable doing his job? Has anyone diagnosed him with muscle atrophy who has had hands on him and is not financially incentivized to do so? Do you have photos of him with a previously larger trapezius muscle that shows atrophy or is it just not as developed as you would like? Atrophy would imply that the muscle has wasted, but if he has never had muscle there, that might not be quite it. Have you had a lameness exam done by a vet with a sports medicine focus, with blocks and imaging as necessary? There certainly are horses who are very sensitive to saddle fit for whom the really specific saddle requirements are a benefit, but 9/10 times from my experience it is more along the lines of the first horse you mentioned- someone is chasing their tail on saddle fit for an issue that’s medical and not properly diagnosed. Unless you know for a fact the horse has been previously ridden in really poorly fitted tack, please do not spend several thousand dollars on saddles to fix a problem that may not actually be a problem.

[Atlas_Shrugged]

Stubben portos elite fit horses with big shoulders- I had one that wouldn’t take a step in anything with the french tree - I have 5 Stubbens now

[BroncoMo]

@Railbird

Do you have photos of him with a previously larger trapezius muscle that shows atrophy or is it just not as developed as you would like? Atrophy would imply that the muscle has wasted, but if he has never had muscle there, that might not be quite it.

You are accurate. It dawned on me that “atrophy” might not be the right word. But I was committed to it so didn’t change it frankly I would have to see if I even have photos of him as a youngster to see if he ever had a more developed trapezius. For the last several years, he hasn’t had development there.

Yes, he is happily doing his job. I am just aware that a horse in some semblance of pain can still do their job willingly and I never want to force him to do so. Though I haven’t had him evaluated because as you say, it’s easy to dump thousands of dollars into a situation where you just chase your tail. I’m hesitant to open that can of worms unless I know for sure the person I use, vet/fitter/otherwise, knows precisely what they’re doing. And I don’t know of anyone who fits the bill. Hence the independent research.

I do appreciate the post trying to keep me grounded in this search. Sometimes I let myself get duped in to thinking I’m not doing good enough.

[greysfordays]

I think just that you are sensitive to the idea he might be in pain, despite doing the job puts you in a league well above many horse owners.

How comfortable are you with your vet? Mine is really maniacal about saddle fit, so she checks it regularly. She’s been very helpful reassuring me that we are on the right track. And she has no incentives getting in the way there financially.

The other thing that can sometimes be helpful, is riding bareback. If it’s a night and day difference, maybe a change in saddle fit could help.

I really thought I would never get my horse’s trapezius to look more filled out, and it has taken a while, but I do think the saddle had something to do with it. I also think the fact we moved to a barn where he has to walk up a lot more hills is helping us quite a bit.