SafeChoice Senior--possible monensin contamination in So CA

[Simkie]

Brian, a gram is a toxic dose. At 1 ppm, you’d need 1000 kg–because 1 ppm is 0.001 g/kg. So that’s 2204 lbs of feed to get that gram. In that 2204 lbs of feed, you have 44.08 50 lb bags of feed. Split that gram you’ve got into those 44.08 bags and you have 22.68 mg per bag.

Who’d like to check my math?

ETA: oh, I see. You’re pointing out the g/mg error I made above. Yeah, mg. Not grams. I’ll go correct that.

I’m really not tracking with how you think a toxic dose is 4 - 6 lbs of feed. 22.68 mg per 50 lbs is 0.45 mg/lb. Six pounds is 2.7 mg. Toxic is 1000 mg.

[MissAriel]

@Brian

MIssAriel, I think the concentration you’re referring to may be in the feed…2-3 mg/kg and not per kg of horse body weight. 2-3 mg/kg is also equal to 2-3 ppm.

If the concentration in the feed from Nutrena was 1 ppm, then 4-6 lbs of feed could potentially been fatal.

@Brian no, you are mistaken: from my reference (linked above) “The lethal dose for most horses is 2-3 mg/kg (equivalent to about 1,000 mg (1 gram) for the average horse).” (bold mine) When looking at toxic doses you almost always look at it relative to animal weight or occasionally to the whole animal. I have never seen LD50s listed as the concentration in the dosing vehicle.

another source: " the toxic dose in horses is about 2.0 mg of monensin per kg, body weight." in https://www.vetary.com/horse/condition/monensin-toxicity

and another: “Cattle can handle about 20 milligrams per kilogram of their total weight, but horses will get sick with only a fraction of that (2 milligrams per kilogram).”
https://www.vetary.com/horse/condition/monensin-toxicity

your check of Simkie’s math is correct - 22.68 mg per 50 lbs concentration, but you still need 1000 mg monensin for a lethal dose, which works out to 44 of those 50lb bags, or 2200 lbs!

[ChloeGirl]

OK, let me get this straight.

-Two horses were fed for a few days on a new bag of feed that was proven by a certified laboratory to contain a substance very toxic to horses.

-The company that makes the feed admits that there was at least some of this highly toxic substance present in the feed.

-No other horses in the stable were fed with this supplement.

-These two horses both died suddenly within a few days of one another.

• No other horses died around that time.

-There happens to be an oleander bush somewhere on the property that the report clearly states was not accessible to the horses.

-The conclusion of some is that the horses died from oleander poisoning and apparently do not find it at all a stretch that that would mean only the horses eating the feed got to the oleander and they only did so after starting to eat contaminated feed .

-The conclusion of some others is that company is in the right and the horse owners( or their friends) are wrong to warn others and need to be bullied by you because -according to the manufacturer, they only found a “small” amount of the highly toxic substance in the feed.

I, like some others of you here not in the above groups, do not feel comforted by Nutrena’s assurances and would not even consider risking my horses’ life on ANY Monensin being present in the feed and appreciate any warning that there may be a problem.

[Simkie]

Chloe, I’m not really sure where you’re seeing “bullying.” This is a conversation between a whole lot of concerned people. The question of “did the feed kill these horses?” is a very solid one to be working through, and by all accounts and the testing that the owners have done on the feed, it’s not possible that there was enough monensin in the feed to cause harm. That’s an important piece of information, don’t you think?

Nutrena’s been all over this and their management has been stellar, IMO. It’s a PR nightmare for them. They’ve been on point here. I hope they’re able to come through this and, although it’s probably unlikely at this point, figure out conclusively what caused the death of these two horses.

[Ghazzu]

@JB

Nutrena doesn’t seem to be addressing the fact that monensin was found at all, seemingly more concerned that a mere 1ppm isn’t enough to kill a horse.

It does appear that 1.4ppm is what’s the currently known lowest dose that can kill, and that an LD50 is between 2-3ppm

I DO hope it is still possible to, and the owner(s) will, have necropsies done on the horses. That will be the only way to prove monensin did or did not kill them.

It is unfortunate that even a single bag could contain a hot spot with enough monensin to easily kill a horse, while leaving the rest of the bag, let alone the batch, testing with very low to even no levels. That makes it that much more critical to do a necropsy.

There’s a difference between 1mg/kg of monensin in the feed, and a dose 1.4mg/kg of bodyweight. The average 450 kg horse would need to consume 630 mg of monensin, which would necessitate eating 630 kilos of the feed (or ~1400 pounds.)

And do we know that a bag could contain a “hot spot”? I was speculating on how it might have been possible, not stating a fact.

[cutter99]

@ChloeGirl

OK, let me get this straight.

-Two horses were fed for a few days on a new bag of feed that was proven by a certified laboratory to contain a substance very toxic to horses.

-The company that makes the feed admits that there was at least some of this highly toxic substance present in the feed.

-No other horses in the stable were fed with this supplement.

-These two horses both died suddenly within a few days of one another.

• No other horses died around that time.

-There happens to be an oleander bush somewhere on the property that the report clearly states was not accessible to the horses.

-The conclusion of some is that the horses died from oleander poisoning and apparently do not find it at all a stretch that that would mean only the horses eating the feed got to the oleander and they only did so after starting to eat contaminated feed .

-The conclusion of some others is that company is in the right and the horse owners( or their friends) are wrong to warn others and need to be bullied by you because -according to the manufacturer, they only found a “small” amount of the highly toxic substance in the feed.

I, like some others of you here not in the above groups, do not feel comforted by Nutrena’s assurances and would not even consider risking my horses’ life on ANY Monensin being present in the feed and appreciate any warning that there may be a problem.

And the lab results said there was not enough monensin present to kill a horse.

Please show us where the alleged “bullying” has occurred. The word “bully” is thrown around way too much in this day and age.

[JB]

@Ghazzu

There’s a difference between 1mg/kg of monensin in the feed, and a dose 1.4mg/kg of bodyweight. The average 450 kg horse would need to consume 630 mg of monensin, which would necessitate eating 630 kilos of the feed (or ~1400 pounds.)

Right, I stated above that I was typing in a hurry and did indeed leave out kinda critical qualifiers

And do we know that a bag could contain a “hot spot”? I was speculating on how it might have been possible, not stating a fact.

I think any bag could contain a hot spot high enough to kill a horses and leave the rest of the bag testing low enough to not raise any flags as to its lethal nature without a test on the horse. It’s probably unlikely that a glob of feed running through a contaminated chute would pick up that much for that brief moment and leave the rest of the bag untouched, but I don’t know enough about the whole physical process.

[knic13]

Regardless of the levels and whether that was the cause of death, the fact that two different ionophores were detected suggests larger system wide quality control issues.

[Brian]

@MissAriel

@Brian no, you are mistaken: from my reference (linked above) “The lethal dose for most horses is 2-3 mg/kg (equivalent to about 1,000 mg (1 gram) for the average horse).” (bold mine) When looking at toxic doses you almost always look at it relative to animal weight or occasionally to the whole animal. I have never seen LD50s listed as the concentration in the dosing vehicle.

another source: " the toxic dose in horses is about 2.0 mg of monensin per kg, body weight." in https://www.vetary.com/horse/condition/monensin-toxicity

and another: “Cattle can handle about 20 milligrams per kilogram of their total weight, but horses will get sick with only a fraction of that (2 milligrams per kilogram).”
https://www.vetary.com/horse/condition/monensin-toxicity

your check of Simkie’s math is correct - 22.68 mg per 50 lbs concentration, but you still need 1000 mg monensin for a lethal dose, which works out to 44 of those 50lb bags, or 2200 lbs!

I stand corrected… Thanks.

[Can_tFindMyWhip]

Do we think that this holds any relevance to any Progressive Nutrition products? Between this and the fiasco with Soothing Pink, should I be worried about continuing to give Topline Extreme?

[JB]

@Can'tFindMyWhip

Do we think that this holds any relevance to any Progressive Nutrition products? Between this and the fiasco with Soothing Pink, should I be worried about continuing to give Topline Extreme?

Progressive has stated the ingredient is for the Soothing Pink. Not even the Soothing Pink Extra Strength. I am quite sure they would have pulled all products that contained whatever that ingredient is.

That wasn’t even about anything Progressive milled themselves. It was an ingredient which came to them already contaminated with ractopamine due to the transportation truck, belonging to the supplier, not following proper washing protocols.

The relevance to all of this is that as long as there are things that equine feeds touch, whether a truck or feed chute or whatever, that have also been used to hold/store/transport anything that might contain anything toxic to horses (ie the ionophores) or banned substances (ie the ractopanime) there is a risk of contamination, and as long as people are involved, it will happen again, and horses will die, and horses will be disqualified and riders suspended.

Here’s the lastest update from Nutrena.

Several times in that report they state that the 3rd party who did the testing also stated that the level of monensin found is common, which I guess is testament to how many horse feeds are produced in cross-species mills

“This report was shared online and reported monensin levels of significantly less than 1ppm in those samples, and also indicated that this amount is common in commercial feeds.”

https://www.nutrenaworld.com/ionophores

[Simkie]

More from Nutrena about this today:

https://www.nutrenaworld.com/ionophores

The interesting bit:

Further independent testing of reserve feed and gut content samples from the second horse, conducted by the CDFA, did not report monensin in either the feed or the horse.

How curious. No monensin in the horse or further feed testing.

[MissAriel]

Thank you for the update. I was wondering when/if something more would be determined.

How sad for the horse owners. I wonder if they will ever know, or if it was just a horrible coincidence.

[Goforward]

What I don’t understand is why anyone would use any brand of feed that runs monensin through it’s machines? Not worth the risk.

[Hermein]

"The majority of their mills are ionophore free? Why in the world aren’t ALL of them free from known toxins? I was told that the trace ionophore in horse feed is because the equipment for making cattle feed and horse feed is not cleaned properly after using ionophores. IMO, it’s (at least) advisable to have different chutes for such feed. There’s always a risk when untrained or careless workers are mixing feed for animals. This makes me so angry with companies who are interested only in their bottom line.

In answer to Goforward’s question right above, it’s not easy to find out such information. I wish that every bag had specific information on where and when it was milled. (Probably wishful thinking.) All you can do currently is contact the brand (include the particular number on the bag) and ask which mill was responsible for your sack.

[keysfins]

@Ghazzu

Without tissue samples from the affected horses, I’m having a hard time seriously blaming the feed.
It could possibly have been unevenly distributed in the bag, but the lack of confirmation vis-a-vis necropsy results is troubling.
And oleander could most certainly cause death via acute cardiac effects.

@Ghazzu
Slightly OT: does oleander toxicity cause observable symptoms? Or would a horse abruptly die as a result of the cardiac effects that you mention?

[tazycat]

@keysfins

@Ghazzu
Slightly OT: does oleander toxicity cause observable symptoms? Or would a horse abruptly die as a result of the cardiac effects that you mention?

@keysfins Here’s a link on oleander toxicity in horses. aces.nmsu.edu/pubs/_b/B712/welcome.html

[tazycat]

@keysfins Here’s a link on oleander toxicity in horses. www.aces.nmsu.edu/pubs/_b/B712/welcome.html