Santa Anita- do you think somethings up?

[saratoga]

@Pronzini

I . If the whip or crop is not appropriate for racehorses, how is it OK for eventers, for hunter jumpers, for dressage horses, for trail riders, for drivers and for pleasure horses?

And if the whip is not OK, why are spurs OK? on.

I’ve competed in lots of different horse sports and usually carry a crop, honestly more from habit than anything, but in my experience, you would get booted from most competitions if you repeatedly hit your horse with the stick, period, let alone full force like jockeys often do. I remember one time at a h/j show there was a girl in the warm up arena that was really mad at her horse for refusing, and furiously whacked it a bunch of times, and the ring steward asked her to leave.

I never really thought about whip use in racing very much until recent years when others have started talking about it. The more I think about it, I think its the right thing to do. The horses down the stretch are generally giving all they have- how many times have we all seen horses under the whip break down? Not to say that it would have prevented it but maybe in some cases.

The best race I ever saw in person was Rachel Alexandra’s Woodward- I get chills just thinking about it, but wow she was really beaten excessively too down the stretch.

[Laurierace]

I have never seen a horse under the whip break down in my entire life. I have seen some rides that I would definitely classify as being excessive in terms of use of the whip but none of them broke down. One went on to win the TC in fact.

[Where_sMyWhite]

PB, contrary to perhaps common belief I am not ignorant of the challenges of today’s trainers.

You suggest the owner. Who of WinStar Farm, China Horse Club, Head of Plains Partners, et al should know where Justify is? Perhaps an exaggeration but maybe you get my drift. Justify isn’t the only horse with multiple partners/owners.

You didn’t answer one of my questions which was if you support OOCT. Do you?

Since the animal to be tested is a horse, they won’t be packing a suitcase and going anywhere without someone knowing where they are. I think OOCT is a good idea. I was looking for thoughts on how to implement it.

[On_the_Farm]

@saratoga

I’ve competed in lots of different horse sports and usually carry a crop, honestly more from habit than anything, but in my experience, you would get booted from most competitions if you repeatedly hit your horse with the stick, period, let alone full force like jockeys often do. I remember one time at a h/j show there was a girl in the warm up arena that was really mad at her horse for refusing, and furiously whacked it a bunch of times, and the ring steward asked her to leave.

I never really thought about whip use in racing very much until recent years when others have started talking about it. The more I think about it, I think its the right thing to do. The horses down the stretch are generally giving all they have- how many times have we all seen horses under the whip break down? Not to say that it would have prevented it but maybe in some cases.

The best race I ever saw in person was Rachel Alexandra’s Woodward- I get chills just thinking about it, but wow she was really beaten excessively too down the stretch.

I’ve seen a teenage girl misuse a whip in the show ring at the Skidmore show in Saratoga. I remember my out loud comment, “Don’t beat the horse up, you’re the one telling him to stop.” I received a lot of nasty looks from people, especially the ones who were nodding in approval of the rider’s actions. No one asked the rider to leave the ring.

As far as breaking down while under the whip, I can only think of one instance (and I’ve watched hundreds, if not thousands, of races) and that was a filly Javier Castellano was riding at Belmont. She wasn’t in an all out drive, but just not putting forth any effort at all in the turn. I thought he should have at least been questioned by the stewards in their weekly review (and very well may have been.)

[Peggy]

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/232805/bisphosphonates-listed-with-blood-doping-agents-in-ny [h=1]Bisphosphonates Listed With ‘Blood Doping’ Agents in NY[/h]

[saratoga]

gosh, hard to believe people say they’ve never seen a horse breakdown while being whipped as many injuries happen in the stretch and most if not all horses are whipped in the stretch. If jockeys DONT use the whip, they can be accused of race fixing, failing to pesevere, etc.

Hitting horses with whips is a part of racing, IMO. I remember after my sister and i would get home from the track when we were little kids, we had a big downed tree to sit on and pretended we were jockeys- crouching down and reaching back and beating the hell out of the tree with a branch or anything we could find. We didnt think anything of it, it was literally just what we saw at the track.

If jockeys really cant whip the horses anymore, it will be interesting to see how that goes. some horses it probably wouldnt affect at all, some will lose incentive to run down the stretch. I definitely cant see it being a negative for the horses.

[Laurierace]

Most breakdowns are on the turn or shortly after coming out of the turn in my experience.

[Palm_Beach]

It makes much more sense to credit the cause of the breakdown of a horse in the late stages of the race to physical issues within the horse that have been compromised by the stress of the race, rather than a crop.

The first quarter of most races is usually as fast as, if not faster than, the last quarter, and you don’t see whips flailing in the first quarter.

[tbchick84]

Another bad spill just happened. Turf race, but it happened when they crossed the dirt strip. Not sure of the details yet.

[Laurierace]

Arms Runner fell and La Sardane fell over him. Too soon to know if Arms Runner fell because he broke down or broke down because he fell.
ETA Arms Runner was euthanized, it has been determined that he fell because he broke down and not the other way around.

[Where_sMyWhite]

I was watching the race on TVG.

Arms Runner, hard to tell if he took an awkward step because the turf/dirt transition surprised him (don’t know if he’d raced down the hill before or not) or if that first step on the dirt caused the breakdown. RF was ‘severely injured’.

As Arms Runner veered, drifting, to the right La Sardane fell over him.

At one point, TVG mentioned that La Sardane was up but then nothing “official” from SA for over an hour. No way to know if that’s how long it took to get Arms Runner back to the barn for diagnostics or if that is how long it took SA to figure out how to spin it. I was disappointed that it took so long to say something “official” (I suspect given the record that SA current has, TVG wasn’t going to say anything until SA said something.)

Don’t envy SA at this moment.

[Where_sMyWhite]

Bless the media… not.

The article on CNN tags Arms Runner as a turf fatality. Technically yes it was a turf race. However, IMO, it first appeared something was wrong during his first steps crossing the dirt track. Who knows what was going on in the leg prior to that, if anything.

The Bloodhorse originally had a headline on their main page with a broken link. Now they have nothing while DRF and PR do have something.

:rolleyes:

Wonder if Arms Runner is one of the ‘in spite of’ rather than ‘because of’ injuries.

[Laurierace]

It definitely was a turf fatality, no way to dispute that. The dirt cross over has always scared me but the horses cross over it like it is nothing all the time so it seems like no big deal.

[LaurieB]

@Laurierace

It definitely was a turf fatality, no way to dispute that. The dirt cross over has always scared me but the horses cross over it like it is nothing all the time so it seems like no big deal.

Some of them cross over it like it’s nothing (usually those who race over it often.) Many veer sharply to the outside. That 6 1/2 f. down-the-hill track is never available for schooling, so the first time horses see it is when they’re running on it, and the top part of the track is much steeper than it appears on TV so they are speeding when they get to the bottom. It always makes me uncomfortable watching horses race on that course.

[Maythehorsebewithme]

@LaurieB

Some of them cross over it like it’s nothing (usually those who race over it often.) Many veer sharply to the outside. That 6 1/2 f. down-the-hill track is never available for schooling, so the first time horses see it is when they’re running on it, and the top part of the track is much steeper than it appears on TV so they are speeding when they get to the bottom. It always makes me uncomfortable watching horses race on that course.

Speeding is the word. Quarter in 20.72 and half in 42.5. That is crazy!

[Palm_Beach]

@Maythehorsebewithme

Speeding is the word. Quarter in 20.72 and half in 42.5. That is crazy!

I did not look at the chart, but if that is correct, that is nuts.

““I am terrified that one horse — one we did five exams on, and the track was perfect, and everything was going good — could go down,” said Ritvo. “We could be one or two accidents away — where nobody did anything wrong — from a referendum (to end the sport in California).””

Better be announcing plans to switch all Stronach tracks to synthetic. Obviously banning whips and tightening up medication rules are not going to have the impact that a safer surface will. California is just crazy enough that they will ban horse racing.

[Countrygirl18]

This thread so far has really been informative. Is anyone else a little scared to watch the Santa Anita derby Saturday? I’ve been watching pretty much all the road to the derby races but I’m not sure I can stomach that one because I’ll be scared the whole way round.

[Jealoushe]

Interesting it happened on the change of footing. This is a long standing debate in the Eventing world whether the changeover causes breakdown.

[Pronzini]

Let’s be clear–there is nothing new about going down the hill at Santa Anita. That course has been in place --I think–from the beginning and it was modelled on the change in elevation of European courses.

It’s a shame but to the extent that this latest is accumulated damage from the bad track (and I don’t know that it is), I wondered beforehand what magical thinking management was engaging in relying on deflection alone to survive this. Deflection works in politics and on the playground. Real issues need real solutions.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@LaurieB

Some of them cross over it like it’s nothing (usually those who race over it often.) Many veer sharply to the outside. That 6 1/2 f. down-the-hill track is never available for schooling, so the first time horses see it is when they’re running on it, and the top part of the track is much steeper than it appears on TV so they are speeding when they get to the bottom. It always makes me uncomfortable watching horses race on that course.

LaurieB, thanks for the comment that the top part is steeper than it looks on TV (as that is where I usually see it).

You are right, many cross like it is nothing but yes, some veer to the outside. I’ve seen a few that try to jump that first turf/dirt line. Yes, I know this race was listed as a turf race and it was. The first obvious, to me, bad step was the first stride onto the dirt crossing.

Not sure I think this one was related to the “bad” track unless it was just the underlying subsurface not being renovated as it happened basically at the outside dirt rail which does, to the best of my knowledge, not get much high speed work over the surface.

Overall